Neck bushing brand????

[bobinpa]

Which brand is typically the most accurate, Redding or Wilson? All of my bushings are Redding and they typically are .001 - .0015 under what they are marked as. So is Wilson the same way?

Edit to add.... I have never used titanium coated bushings... is it worth the extra $$$?

Thanks

 

[LRPV]

CRT (custom reloading tools). I believe Whidden bought them out. Anyway, they can be purchased from Whidden Gunworks.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just to confuse things, RCBS makes "standard" (meaning with exterior dimensions compatible with Wilson and Redding) bushings, both coated and uncoated. Their coating is unique, and seems to work pretty well. They have one other innovation, the sides of their bushings are recessed in a band around the middle, and the sizes are stamped in that recessed area, which eliminates the issue of a bushing being tilted because the number stamping causes a distortion that might make contact with the die.

I have measured the distance from ID to OD (using a neck mic. that reads to .0001) at difference places around all of the brands of bushings,and they all show some variation (runout of the ID compared to the OD) EXCEPT the carbide bushing that I measured. It was right on the money. I believe that the reason for this lies it the difference in how those are manufactured, ground, VS. turned and polished. Generally, I prefer my Wilson bushings because there is a half thousandths between the neck diameter depending on how they are turned in the die.

One thing that I would encourage you to remember is that things that cannot be seen on the target do not matter. Most of us have the ability to measure things that fall into this category.

 

[Catfish]

I think that they do that so the the od on the case necks will be closer to the reading on the bushing, i.e., they are allowing for spring back.

 

[jepp2]

Which brand is typically the most accurate, Redding or Wilson?
Edit to add.... I have never used titanium coated bushings... is it worth the extra $$$?

What is your neck OD after sizing, and what are you using to measure it with? Do you anneal your case necks, and if so how often? I also tend to believe the bushings size designation is intended to be the after sizing case neck OD, given the variables that can exist on spring back.

I have used Redding both types and find the titanium bushings to have more runout than the non-coated bushings. But my experience with both types is unsatisfactory.

As mentioned, I tried the CRT bushings and reduced my case neck runout by about 50%.

 

[Steve Ladino]

Mine are cold rolled, work good.

 

[Webster]

Mine are cold rolled, work good.

I have been reading that some people have measured bushings and found a slight tilt to the surface due to stamping the brand and size. I took a Redding .265 bushing and lightly sanded it on 1200 grit sand paper on a flat piece of glass. Shiny areas from sanding appear around the letters and numbers indicating slight raised areas from displaced metal. The numbers must be stamped on the bushings before they are hardened. I worked for a steel co. in R&D for 18 years, petroleum R&D for 17 years. I don't think it's possible to stamp anything harder than about 40 HRC. They must rough machine external dimensions and the bore in the soft condition, stamp numbers, then harden the steel and then hone the bore to final spec. It would be interesting to know how they clean them up after hardening to get the discoloration off. My guess is there isn't a real problem.

I don't understand measuring the bushing bores with pin gauges. Take a case that's been fired several times, turned for consistent wall thickness, maybe annealed, measure the case neck before and after sizing and create a table for the size each bushing produces. No pin gauges needed. This chart would account for case hardness, springback and the bushing.

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

You are correct that most bushings are stamped prior to the heat treat process. However I will tell you that a stamped bushing can and will distort, even though it may be a small distortion it does have a negative impact on the brass when sizing. Using a cnc machine to engrave the information onto the bushing is one of the few safe ways to guarantee that the bushing won't be distorted, the other option would be laser engraving.
To my knowledge Whidden Gunworks is the only company currently producing a neck bushing that is CNC engraved.

 

[Webster]

You are correct that most bushings are stamped prior to the heat treat process. However I will tell you that a stamped bushing can and will distort, even though it may be a small distortion it does have a negative impact on the brass when sizing. Using a cnc machine to engrave the information onto the bushing is one of the few safe ways to guarantee that the bushing won't be distorted, the other option would be laser engraving.
To my knowledge Whidden Gunworks is the only company currently producing a neck bushing that is CNC engraved.

The heat treating would remove any stress from stamping, but the part could distort especially when it's quenched from the furnace from about 2250F. . Sounds like they feel the tolerances are good enough. Where the ones that want things to a 0.0002" tolerance. I agree laser engraving would be nice. I saw a barrel the Kelby put on a rifle it looked like Kelby and the caliber were laser engraved. No more stamping. I am getting a 6BRX barrel from him in a month. Hope to see laser engraving. It looks frosted and a dirt catcher. Don't know if it's practical for some companies to buy a laser engraver dedicated to one part. Most 6ppc shooters use a one piece FL die made to fit a case fired in their rifle.

 

[SmokinJoe]

Aren't the Wilson bushings ground after engraving, like a final operation after the cylindrical grinding has been done?

 

[Steve Ladino]

I have been reading that some people have measured bushings and found a slight tilt to the surface due to stamping the brand and size. I took a Redding .265 bushing and lightly sanded it on 1200 grit sand paper on a flat piece of glass. Shiny areas from sanding appear around the letters and numbers indicating slight raised areas from displaced metal. The numbers must be stamped on the bushings before they are hardened. I worked for a steel co. in R&D for 18 years, petroleum R&D for 17 years. I don't think it's possible to stamp anything harder than about 40 HRC. They must rough machine external dimensions and the bore in the soft condition, stamp numbers, then harden the steel and then hone the bore to final spec. It would be interesting to know how they clean them up after hardening to get the discoloration off. My guess is there isn't a real problem.

I don't understand measuring the bushing bores with pin gauges. Take a case that's been fired several times, turned for consistent wall thickness, maybe annealed, measure the case neck before and after sizing and create a table for the size each bushing produces. No pin gauges needed. This chart would account for case hardness, springback and the bushing.

I use a tubing wall thickness micrometer (like Sinclair sells) to make bushings to spec. not pin gauges.

 

[LCazador]

Just to confuse things, RCBS makes "standard" (meaning with exterior dimensions compatible with Wilson and Redding) bushings, both coated and uncoated. Their coating is unique, and seems to work pretty well. They have one other innovation, the sides of their bushings are recessed in a band around the middle, and the sizes are stamped in that recessed area, which eliminates the issue of a bushing being tilted because the number stamping causes a distortion that might make contact with the die.

I have measured the distance from ID to OD (using a neck mic. that reads to .0001) at difference places around all of the brands of bushings,and they all show some variation (runout of the ID compared to the OD) EXCEPT the carbide bushing that I measured. It was right on the money. I believe that the reason for this lies it the difference in how those are manufactured, ground, VS. turned and polished. Generally, I prefer my Wilson bushings because there is a half thousandths between the neck diameter depending on how they are turned in the die.

One thing that I would encourage you to remember is that things that cannot be seen on the target do not matter. Most of us have the ability to measure things that fall into this category.

Ditto on what Boyd says here. Excellent advice. You're reading too much into this. Go with Wilson.

 

[ASbobcat]

Which brand is typically the most accurate, Redding or Wilson? All of my bushings are Redding and they typically are .001 - .0015 under what they are marked as. So is Wilson the same way?

Edit to add.... I have never used titanium coated bushings... is it worth the extra $$$?

Thanks

I have been using them for a couple of decades and they are good, but not perfect. It is obvious that Redding machines to spec before .0005 coating, as TiN actual is almost always .001 less ID than marked. Redding recommends using bushings upside down so the raised stamped numbers don't tilt the bushing in the die.
I have sent a couple back for either incorrect size stamp (after allowing for coating thickness) or imperfection is bevels. They replace at no cost, but it costs me $4 postage and a trip to the P.O. for a $28 item.
TiN is a carbon/metal-oxide/brass shaving magnet. I always anneal, which leaves a microscopic layer of copper oxide that is very abrasive. I scratched a few bushings before figuring this out and now clean the annealed surface with Boretech Carbon Remover before sizing. Make sure to chamfer case necks too, because TiN gauls easily too. Bushings can be polished with 400grit and WD40, but it's a nuisance.
Reddings TiCarbide pistol dies are even worse in this respect. I tried a set and had to polish after almost every case, and that was just from brass shavings, not annealing.
It's been so long since I've used steel bushings that I don't know whether they exhibit the same issues, but I would like to hear from someone who uses them.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have used steel Wilson bushings for years, loading for .222 and 6PPC with only one issue. One bushing was scratching necks. I was able to polish it and solve the problem. I do not anneal. Typically, I clean the powder fouling from the outside of the necks of fired cases using 0000 steel wool. I do not anneal. At short ranges, chasing low ES is not really important.

 

[ASbobcat]

I have used steel Wilson bushings for years, loading for .222 and 6PPC with only one issue. One bushing was scratching necks. I was able to polish it and solve the problem. I do not anneal. Typically, I clean the powder fouling from the outside of the necks of fired cases using 0000 steel wool. I do not anneal. At short ranges, chasing low ES is not really important.

Thanks for the info. I was about to give up on TiN and go back to steel, but now I'm glad I didn't. I agree about annealing. Not worth the time and effort for short range.