My Savage LRPV 6BR and fliers

[LR_Shooter]

I got this rifle last month, it came with factory test target what I see 3 shots nicely grouped and 2 fliers.

I had close to 200 rounds down tube and here what I'm getting, I marked order in which they impacted, as you can see 1, 2, 4 grouped nicely, but 3 and 5 fliers:

in this picture I shot two 5 shot groups with the same load, the top one grouped just like in previous picture:

even in this I would call 2 fliers

Amazing, somehow 5 shots stayed together!

this is 300 yards, flier made it more them a minute so I stopped:

Another 300 yards and 2 fliers:

don't know what to call this, something vertical...

I think this one got one flier, also 300 yards

another target 300 yards

Do you see any pattern? I think 6BR should be capable of better then what I'm getting...

By the way this is not true LRPV, somehow Savage forgot to put HS Precision stock,instead I got laminate just like their BR model with wide beaver tail and no swivel stud or any other means to mount bi-pod.

 

[jonbearman]

What kind of brass and bullets are you using,powder? etc. This could help us to figure out what is going on. Is the tang by the safety free floated? The tang can cause fliers and undue stress in the bedding.It must hang out in thin air so to speak.I like at least .010 thou of space between tang and wood.You might want to check the torque of the bedding screws.For bare wood with no pillars, 35 inch lbs,Pillars would be 45 inch lbs.

 

[LR_Shooter]

did this done that, torque, tang floated, bedded action, recut chamber, the original was to hard to operate to many machine marks etc, had to adjust firing pin original was to far out puncturing and cratering primers. Loads are simple 29.5 - 30 gr Varget and 105-A-Max on the target 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 105 gr Barnes Match Burners 3 & 4, primers are CCI BR, brass was new from Norma, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes debured and necks turned already been annealed once. Bullets seated 0.015 - 0.020" of the lands. brass trimmed to 1.555"

the torque on the front two screws is set to 35 inch/pound that's the only thing which might be a problem...
it does have pillars some sort, its BR stock.

 

[Forum Boss]

Borrow a borescope. Check the entrance to the lands. It's not uncommon for one land to be longer than another. This can be caused by a number of factors, one of which is the chamber being cut slightly off-axis relative to the bore. You say you recut the chamber -- have you scoped the lead/entrance to lands?

Also, if you have a Savage wrench, loosen that and tell us how much wobble is in the barrel. We've seen some issues of tenon threads cut oversize.

Load: I would definitely try the Barnes bullets about .010-.015 in the lands.

How is the crown? A bad crown could cause the flyers all by itself.

The 35 in/lb torque figure is what Savage officially tells the world, but something closer to 45-50 works for many guys.

I would also borrow a different scope. I've seen flyers like that when a scope went bad.

 

[LR_Shooter]

I had "Preacher" help me with the chamber, the original was scratching brass. Its probably good idea to ask him about threads and wobbling.
Here is a link to the chamber issue: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3767915.0.html

With new chamber I have no problem operating bolt. Fliers occurred before new chamber was cut, if you look at the target Savage shot, this would also rule out scope, since they shoot from rifle vise to eliminate scope and shooter's error.

 

[LR_Shooter]

You asked about muzzle crown, it looks like this is typical Savage muzzle crown. Lands seems to be rough:

 

[6BRinNZ]

Assuming everything checks out and you are faced with it being a load issue below are my thoughts..

You seem to have a lot of vertical at 100yrds. Can you up the powder load? Also the 105 Amax is a secant ogive and may benefit from a seating depth test in your rifle. Do you measure loaded seating depth on each bullet?

As an aside if shots 1-3 don't show improved vertical in your load development at 100yrds then I wouldn't pull the trigger for the other two.

What FPS are you getting with the 105s?

How did you get to the load that you are using?

Good luck

 

[LR_Shooter]

Yes, I guess I can up load, with 30 gr I'm 3.4 MOA to 300 from 100 yards that's more then 2900 fps. Yes every load get measured, every bullet is sorted by ogive, then weighted, the HP bullets getting meplat trimmed, brass is also sorted by weight and capacity. I think to eliminate all the brass where fliers occur. Seating depth on A-Max I tried 1.827", 1.820", 1.818", 1.800", 1.790" by ogive, with MAX 1.834"

 

[6BRinNZ]

seems to me you are doing the right things from a loading point of view

If you are over say ~2930 I wouldn't be looking to up the powder charge...I don't think the answer will be there....too hard on brass if nothing else. I would possibly be considering an accuracy node lower...

What size bushing do you use?

Have you tried jamming? There are a lot of posts that suggest jamming is better for secant/vld type bullets.

Marking the brass with flyers is a good idea.

Below is the link to the Berger SD process (scroll down in the link), not saying necessarily it will be your issue but they suggest much larger changes in SD initially. http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/blog1/?paged=2

 

[LR_Shooter]

About muzzle crown, is it supposed to have 60 degree cut along the edges of the bore? Like in this picture of classic target crown?

 

[ridgeway]

All mine are a 90 degree face. What is your bench/bag/rest set up like? Wind flags?

 

[LR_Shooter]

Well, I use Harris Bipod S-BRM 6" to 9", and I have rear bag and I use flags. I just adjusted trigger pull to the lighters setting, before I didn't play with trigger pull and it was set at max like 2.5 lb. I shoot off the bench, its wood bench and bipod when I pull forward have tendency to slip, I'm thinking to tape sandpaper to the bench to prevent slipping.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I would recommend developing off rests and zeroing off bipods. The amount of vertical you are getting at 100yrds could easy be due to bench setup...been there and done that.

 

[LR_Shooter]

So you really think that if this rifle was tested at the factory grouped 0.634" using Lapua ammo is capable of less? Maybe this is a limit for it, if I plug all the groups then it does shoot 0.6 on average. "Preacher", mentioned that I should get different barrel, like Brux or Pac-Nor and I think he is right.
I can plug 308 @ 100 yards with no problem and no fliers and keep 2.8"@500 yards with setup I have...
After I bedded its action and got its tang floated I didn't see any improvements at all, it still shoots 0.6"@100 on average.

 

[6BRinNZ]

So you really think that if this rifle was tested at the factory grouped 0.634" using Lapua ammo is capable of less? Maybe this is a limit for it, if I plug all the groups then it does shoot 0.6 on average. "Preacher", mentioned that I should get different barrel, like Brux on Pac-Nor and I think he is right.
I can plug 308 @ 100 yards with no problem and no fliers and keep 2.8"@500 yards with setup I have...

do I think load development can improve on a factory 5 shot group yes. Am I saying your rifle can - not necessarily...Preacher having looked at the rifle will have given you the best advice.

My comment with respect to rest setup is echoed many times on this site....if your setup works for you - more power to you.

Good luck.

 

[LR_Shooter]

Thank you 6BRinNZ, I know the setup your are talking about, this setup works best for benchrest and LRPV is supposed to be varminter type, however I never thought of 6BR, I bought Savage in 260 REM and they made me switch to 6BR, other choice was 204 Ruger.

 

[dully1963]

Hi
just wondering have you let somebody else have a go to see if they get the same results because i had a friend with a similar problem and when a friend shot well with his gun it seemed to clear some sort of mental block
hope you get sorted
all the best
dully1963

 

[snowpro440]

Looks like its time for a custom barrel, that will eliminate those flyers. Get a krieger barrel .

 

[jhord]

Replacing the stock recoil lug (junk) might help. The factory ones are stamped, warped, and they squash them on there with a million pounds of torque on the barrel nut. I replaced the lugs on a couple of my Savages and it was an improvement. And if not on yours, then you'll have a nice lug for when you get a custom barrel.

 

[LR_Shooter]

"just wondering have you let somebody else have a go to see if they get the same results" Yes I had Savage to shoot it before me, this is not first rifle which won't shoot, from the years I learned if it won't shoot for me there are definitely something wrong with the barrel, just in April I got their target series in 260, it wouldn't group less then an inch, so I just send it back, I know procedure scope rings bedding crown once again not the first one, if it shoots with handloads more then an inch its a toast. I was right again, it was early May, I was given promises that I will get it back before Memorial day, well Memorial day passed and another month so I called then and they offered me this instead. I think with solid target action which uses different recoil lug then regular savages, this one is not like stamped piece jhord described, its more solid and thick. I have 110 Savage with pencil thin barrel with thin stamped recoil lug and it shoots better on average then this LRPV, the only problem its barrel to thin and pulling 5 shots is problematic.