My ignorance is showing

[Pyscodog]

I shot my best group ever today at 300 yds. A 3 shot group measuring .464 using my Defiance action and Rock barrel in 308 Win. Now my ignorance....I had 5 rounds of 168SMK's in LC LR brass that I shot the small group with. Then I went to the exact same load but using Black Hills Match brass and my groups opened up to a little over an inch. (still at 300yds) The LC has been annealed and neck turned just enough to clean up the neck. The BHM brass has had nothing done to it. The LC LR case weighs 183.1 grains and the BHM weighs 162.2 grains. Is this or could it be my accuracy issue? I also use a Gen3 Little Bastard brake and noticed it was loose when I got home. Did this also add to the difference in accuracy? I have no problem buying better brass or more LC if I can find it or even Lapua.. I just want what works the best.
Seems the Lake City LR is a little hard to find in stock but if its what I need I'll find some somewhere. Lapua is available and I have a BUNCH of the BHM brass.

 

[Bill Norris]

In reference to the brake being loose that will cause the groups to be erratic.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I shot my best group ever today at 300 yds. A 3 shot group measuring .464 using my Defiance action and Rock barrel in 308 Win. Now my ignorance....I had 5 rounds of 168SMK's in LC LR brass that I shot the small group with. Then I went to the exact same load but using Black Hills Match brass and my groups opened up to a little over an inch. (still at 300yds) The LC has been annealed and neck turned just enough to clean up the neck. The BHM brass has had nothing done to it. The LC LR case weighs 183.1 grains and the BHM weighs 162.2 grains. Is this or could it be my accuracy issue? I also use a Gen3 Little Bastard brake and noticed it was loose when I got home. Did this also add to the difference in accuracy? I have no problem buying better brass or more LC if I can find it or even Lapua.. I just want what works the best.
Seems the Lake City LR is a little hard to find in stock but if its what I need I'll find some somewhere. Lapua is available and I have a BUNCH of the BHM brass.

Yup, that difference in case weights means a significant difference in case volume, which is going to change what you get on the target quite a bit. . . though a 3 shot groups really doesn't define where you've got a good load or not. A loose break can be a big issue too.

LC brass can work just fine. You just have to find the right load. Just keep in mind, whenever you change brass or even a different lot, it's good to measure case volume and making adjustments accordingly.

 

[Pyscodog]

I was pretty sure on the break part but wished I'd noticed it sooner. When I got the LB break some of the reviews said they come loose at times. I'd never shot this rifle at 300yds yet as its pretty new to me. I only had 5 rounds of the LC loads left from a previous trip and used three to find my come ups and used the other two to bang a 4" steel. After finding my zero hitting the 4" steel was pretty easy. Seven for seven on the dinger.
The LC brass seems to work well with my loads. Very accurate at 100 and 200yds and the Black Hills was good out to 200. I guess I'm just not to sure what I should do at this point. I'm thinking maybe just buy some new Lapua and start over with load work.

 

[RegionRat]

I guess I'm just not to sure what I should do at this point. I'm thinking maybe just buy some new Lapua and start over with load work.

If you care about going out past 300 yards, then you will need to start segregating your brass.

The obvious answer is to spend your efforts on a bigger batch of brass for stuff you care about and use the rest for plinking inside 300 yards.

 

[6.5 forever]

In reference to the brake being loose that will cause the groups to be erratic.

This is my vote.

 

[6.5 forever]

I was pretty sure on the break part but wished I'd noticed it sooner. When I got the LB break some of the reviews said they come loose at times. I'd never shot this rifle at 300yds yet as its pretty new to me. I only had 5 rounds of the LC loads left from a previous trip and used three to find my come ups and used the

other two to bang a 4" steel. After finding my zero hitting the 4" steel was pretty easy. Seven for seven on the dinger.
The LC brass seems to work well with my loads. Very accurate at 100 and 200yds and the Black Hills was good out to 200. I guess I'm just not to sure what I should do at this point. I'm thinking maybe just buy some new Lapua and start over with load work.

I think that you need to fire a lot more rounds before making any decisions. Relax and do more testing.

 

[Doug Beach]

The same ammo can easily shoot a 1/2” group and a 1” group at 300 yards. That’s a 1/6 MOA group (extraordinarily good), followed by a 1/3rd MOA group (excellent). I realize this wasn’t exactly the same ammo, and there was the issue of the loose brake, but you aren’t going to find a load that shoots 1/6 MOA at 300, group after group after group.

 

[Pyscodog]

If you care about going out past 300 yards, then you will need to start segregating your brass.

The obvious answer is to spend your efforts on a bigger batch of brass for stuff you care about and use the rest for plinking inside 300 yards.

I never mix brass as a rule. Well never other than in my 300BO. Its not exactly a tack driver anyway. I don't have much of the LC (50 pieces) and have a butt load of the Black Hills. I was hoping the results from the Black Hills would give good results which it does at 100 and 200yds and It may be fine at 300 but the break being loose probably didn't help much. I'll get my rifle squared away, (tightening the break) before I go shoot and load a few more using the LC brass and give it another try.

 

[Field_2_Fork]

If you have a chronograph and can shoot the load in both sets of brass again, see what the difference in velocity is between the two, might be a starting point to trying to get the BH to shoot the same as the LC.

 

[Doom]

Most BHA brass that I have encountered appears to actually be Winchester with the BHA head stamp. That holds here and the the BHA brass has probably 2-3 gr of water greater case capacity.

 

[Pyscodog]

I was told once that it may be Winchester brass. I'm not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing. The last new Winchester brass. 25-06, I bought was lacking on quality. Some of it wasn't even usable. I do use quite a bit of the old WW stamped brass. It seems OK for what it is used for.

 

[Doom]

I haven't bought any Winchester cases since the blue bag days but it was good, 308 and 223, but it was not consistent. The way I viewed it you had to buy about four bags (100) to have 100 consistent as a box of 100 Lapua.

Winchester modified their 308 brass back in the 90's (IIRC) for Palma competition. It was called balloon head. I don't know if they still use that method or just thinned out the web.

 

[searcher]

You have several issues going on there, as you have acknowledged. I'd probably focus on the difference in case capacity and neck tension of the new brass. First, I'd tighten that brake, then drop your powder amount and run a new powder ladder. I'd measure you necks and turn them to as close as you can to what your LC necks are. Your rifle is liking the bullet and powder, so there would seemingly be much less to scrutinize at this point. Your change to the BHA brass almost certainly resulted in a velocity change and your neck tension is likely different. Getting those in line will likely improve your situation. The thought of going with Lapua brass is never a bad idea, but the fact you got what you did with the LC shows you can get good without it. I'd be inclined to see what you can get out of the BHA first.

 

[Pyscodog]

I may size a few cases of the BHM and prime them at the house. We have an indoor facility and could bring my Gen6 and a hand press with a seater die so I could play with charge weight. I have a chronograph as well so I can set it up and see the differences in the two different cases. At least it might save me a few miles driving back and forth to the club.

My brass has a head stamp, LC 10 LR so if anyone has a little extra they want to sell I'd be interested in it. I don't need a lot but 50-100 cases would be nice.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I haven't bought any Winchester cases since the blue bag days but it was good, 308 and 223, but it was not consistent. The way I viewed it you had to buy about four bags (100) to have 100 consistent as a box of 100 Lapua.

Winchester modified their 308 brass back in the 90's (IIRC) for Palma competition. It was called balloon head. I don't know if they still use that method or just thinned out the web.

If the "balloon head" is referring to what I think it is, I'd say they're still making it that way. I've got a few hundred Winchester brass that I bought just a few years ago (they've been collecting dust since the first firing ) and looking inside at the bottom is a raised flat area around the flash hole is quite prominent. It's like there's a little washer sitting around flash hole. That raised washer like area shows up with a case head thickness measurement substantially more than other brass (like .219" compared to other brass other brass like Peterson or Alpha at ~.185 . . . though Starline measures ~.210 without such a feature). One batch of Winchester brass weighs around 165 gr, while another batch is at 155 grs. When measuring case volumes, it's as you've said where Winchester brass is ~2+ grain more that we typically see in the other brands of brass.

 

[Doom]

If the "balloon head" is referring to what I think it is, I'd say they're still making it that way. I've got a few hundred Winchester brass that I bought just a few years ago (they've been collecting dust since the first firing ) and looking inside at the bottom is a raised flat area around the flash hole is quite prominent. It's like there's a little washer sitting around flash hole. That raised washer like area shows up with a case head thickness measurement substantially more than other brass (like .219" compared to other brass other brass like Peterson or Alpha at ~.185 . . . though Starline measures ~.210 without such a feature). One batch of Winchester brass weighs around 165 gr, while another batch is at 155 grs. When measuring case volumes, it's as you've said where Winchester brass is ~2+ grain more that we typically see in the other brands of brass.

Sounds like it. I've never sectioned one but the description I was given the area between the flash hole and the wall was sort of scooped out in such a way the the web would be thicker at the flash hole and the wall.

 

[Doom]

When I was on the PracticalRiflery forum one of the members did a good test on volume vs weight of different cases. Here is the result.


The lowest weight case was Hornady, then BHA and the next was Winchester.

Here is the data:

 

[Pyscodog]

I kinda feel like I stepped into a hole I should have avoided. The rifle I bought is competition worthy but I'm not a competition shooter. The friend I got it from found me almost 200 pieces of the LC LR brass but it hasn't been annealed or neck turned. He gave me 50 pieces when I got the rifle that was prepped. So now I have two different batchs of brass. Some are marked with 10 and some with 12. I weighed 2 pieces of each just to see where I was at and lightest was 182.6 and heaviest was 184.3. Not a lot of difference to me. Is that enough difference that I need to sort all the brass by weight? Or is a couple of grains difference enough to worry with. Like I said, I am not shooting competition, just a recreational paper puncher and a little steel now and then.