More info on those Lothar Walther M14 barrels I reviewed, ICR rifling=Internal Curved Radius. Borescope images post cleaning

[tonyben]

ICR rifling means "Internal Curved Radius." The CEO finally told me what it means. I also have permission to post pics of the rifling. From John at LW:

"If you look at the rifling there are no sharp edges just a radius on a radius. We have been making this type of rifling for 5 to 6 years, just haven’t advertised it. We just make barrels for the industry and don’t advertise or post anything on the internet."

This is after a couple hundred rounds from my Vintage Sniper competition rifle. There was minimal fouling in the barrel and it cleaned up with two wet patches, a few strokes of a bore brush with Bore Tech copper cleaner and three more passes with dry patches. There are just tints or stains of copper at some points and no actual copper fouling.

Here's a muzzle view of the rifling.

For those that didn't see my posts before, I got a 45 FPS velocity gain over conventional 4-groove rifling and it even shot faster than one of my 5R barrels. I got 2705 FPS out of a 22" barrel with ICR rifling while getting 2650 out of conventional rifling with ammo from the same box and the same length.

I recently shot two 0.6 MOA groups at 300 yards with 155 grain ELD-M's while doing a ladder test and I've been using this to shoot CMP vintage sniper matches here in FL. I've been scoring in the mid-90's at 600 yards using 175 grain SMK's.

Tony.

 

[marchx]

I don’t know anyone who shoots lothar walther barrel. It was the case 10 years ago but not anymore.

 

[Straightshooter1]

ICR rifling means "Internal Curved Radius." The CEO finally told me what it means. I also have permission to post pics of the rifling. From John at LW:

"If you look at the rifling there are no sharp edges just a radius on a radius. We have been making this type of rifling for 5 to 6 years, just haven’t advertised it. We just make barrels for the industry and don’t advertise or post anything on the internet."

This is after a couple hundred rounds from my Vintage Sniper competition rifle. There was minimal fouling in the barrel and it cleaned up with two wet patches, a few strokes of a bore brush with Bore Tech copper cleaner and three more passes with dry patches. There are just tints or stains of copper at some points and no actual copper fouling.

Here's a muzzle view of the rifling.

For those that didn't see my posts before, I got a 45 FPS velocity gain over conventional 4-groove rifling and it even shot faster than one of my 5R barrels. I got 2705 FPS out of a 22" barrel with ICR rifling while getting 2650 out of conventional rifling with ammo from the same box and the same length.

I recently shot two 0.6 MOA groups at 300 yards with 155 grain ELD-M's while doing a ladder test and I've been using this to shoot CMP vintage sniper matches here in FL. I've been scoring in the mid-90's at 600 yards using 175 grain SMK's.

Tony.

What powder was used before you cleaned the barrel?

 

[tonyben]

My last trip consisted of RL-15 and IMR-4895.

 

[cmillard]

Looks almost like what glock uses in their barrels

 

[ebb]

Back years ago, I remember hearing several people talk of LW barrels being very hard on tooling when chambered, lasting longer than barrels made from the standard alloy. This was internet rumor and i have no idea if it's true, but a longer barrel life is a very good thing when considering cost and down time. You mention .6 MOA groups, how does this compare with previous barrels?

 

[jelenko]

What does 'radius on a radius' mean? I.e., how is it different from just a radius?

 

[tonyben]

Back years ago, I remember hearing several people talk of LW barrels being very hard on tooling when chambered, lasting longer than barrels made from the standard alloy. This was internet rumor and i have no idea if it's true, but a longer barrel life is a very good thing when considering cost and down time. You mention .6 MOA groups, how does this compare with previous barrels?

It's pretty comparable to Kreiger and some heavy Criterions. The smallest group I ever shot was with a standard rifling Lothar Walther heavy barrel using iron sights in my double-lugged M14. Three one-inch groups (5 shots each) followed by two shots 0.2" apart, followed by three shots 0.16" apart. I was dialing in my iron sights and the last three shots landed in the 10/X-ring border. That was at 100 yards though. But if I was using a scope, I'm sure those one inch groups would have been smaller.

I've used many Kreiger barrels to shoot anywhere from the 0.4" to 0.75" group size in the past. For a M14, anything under 1 inch or 1 MOA is a fantastic shooting rifle.

What does 'radius on a radius' mean? I.e., how is it different from just a radius?

It means you have the grooves, which are concave and the radius stems from the bore centerline, and the lands, which are convex and the radius stems from an imaginary point outside the barrel.

Tony.

 

[marchx]

Lothar Walther is a mass producer of barrels. It supplies half of European rifle manufacturers. In order to get a decent barrel you have to buy additional service (Matchbehandlung). Ordering a single barrel from them is a nightmare. They use different steel to what Krieger/Bartlein are using. It's harder and more demanding for machining. Let me know when someone wins SWN shooting a LW barrel.

 

[tonyben]

Lothar Walther is a mass producer of barrels. It supplies half of European rifle manufacturers. In order to get a decent barrel you have to buy additional service (Matchbehandlung). Ordering a single barrel from them is a nightmare. They use different steel to what Krieger/Bartlein are using. It's harder and more demanding for machining. Let me know when someone wins SWN shooting a LW barrel.

These barrels are manufactured at their Cummings, GA plant out of 416 stainless. The barrels that were coming out of Germany were LW-19 steel which is close to 4337 or 4340 chome-moly steel. They are not importing M14 barrels from Germany anymore.

They are the only ones offering 18.5 inch and 16" M14 barrels chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have found ordering a single barrel from them is no different than ordering a single barrel from Kreiger or Bartlein.

Tony.

 

[marchx]

These barrels are manufactured at their Cummings, GA plant out of 416 stainless. The barrels that were coming out of Germany were LW-19 steel which is close to 4337 or 4340 chome-moly steel. They are not importing M14 barrels from Germany anymore.

They are the only ones offering 18.5 inch and 16" M14 barrels chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have found ordering a single barrel from them is no different than ordering a single barrel from Kreiger or Bartlein.

Tony.

Not in Europe!

 

[jelenko]

Just FYI. The US website is not available. Says it's under construction.

 

[Kurz]

 

[bugman]

What does 'radius on a radius' mean? I.e., how is it different from just a radius?

It means a radius at the interface with the superior edge of the groove , and another radius at the interface with the inferior aspect of the groove

 

[William Vogel]

It's pretty comparable to Kreiger and some heavy Criterions. The smallest group I ever shot was with a standard rifling Lothar Walther heavy barrel using iron sights in my double-lugged M14. Three one-inch groups (5 shots each) followed by two shots 0.2" apart, followed by three shots 0.16" apart. I was dialing in my iron sights and the last three shots landed in the 10/X-ring border. That was at 100 yards though. But if I was using a scope, I'm sure those one inch groups would have been smaller.

I've used many Kreiger barrels to shoot anywhere from the 0.4" to 0.75" group size in the past. For a M14, anything under 1 inch or 1 MOA is a fantastic shooting rifle.



It means you have the grooves, which are concave and the radius stems from the bore centerline, and the lands, which are convex and the radius stems from an imaginary point outside the barrel.

Tony.

I wish they shot better than 1 moa but that’s about what I get with mine at 700 yards. My load is with AA2495 and Sierra 155 Palma. It’s about 1/2moa at 100 yards but something is happening out at 700. It could be my velocity differential but it’s not vertical. It’s a complete random opening of group. 10 shots is about all the barrel has before I have to let it rest.