Trying to figure out if there are other ways, other than (1) wearing ear plugs, plus (2) wearing battery operated ear muffs, to minimize the risk of hearing loss, or to minimize the risk of further exacerbating hearing loss if we've already got it, due to shooting. In particular, items (1) and (2) do not cover the mastoid bone behind the ear which I am concerned about. Anything else we can do to minimize hearing loss other than not shooting? Any otologists out there?
Minimizing the risk of hearing loss from shooting
- Thread starter Cassidy
- Start date
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
WHAT? You have to type a little louder! I used to shoot without any muffs, when I was "young and indestructable", and now i have about 40% loss. When I take youngsters and friends shooting, they get muffs and plugs. I'm not allowed supressors where I live. I would use them if I could.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Cassidy,
For what it's worth, I wear both ear plugs and muffs that have NO sound adjustment capability. As a youngster (15) I wore no ear protection either in shooting or motorcycle riding. I kept doing that until entering military service at age 18 where we had to wear ear plug at the range. Started wearing ear plugs after that, except when motorcycle riding. At around age 53 my hearing started going south as a result of my own stupidity as a youngster and now some 15 yrs later I only have about 45% of my hearing left. So beware all....there is a price to pay if you don't protect your hearing.
Alex
For what it's worth, I wear both ear plugs and muffs that have NO sound adjustment capability. As a youngster (15) I wore no ear protection either in shooting or motorcycle riding. I kept doing that until entering military service at age 18 where we had to wear ear plug at the range. Started wearing ear plugs after that, except when motorcycle riding. At around age 53 my hearing started going south as a result of my own stupidity as a youngster and now some 15 yrs later I only have about 45% of my hearing left. So beware all....there is a price to pay if you don't protect your hearing.
Alex
My hearing is RS after a good too many loud explosions, gunshots and racing go karts for a few years all with no hearing protection.
I'm 48 this year and recently had a gearing test indicating over 60db loss across a few frequency steps in both ears.
The crickets in my ears now need the radio on pretty loud to drown them out.
I find screaming kids and gunshots give me an instant headache now and are honestly painful.
I wear plugs and muffs however the damage is done and whatever damage I have sustained appears to now be aggravated by the concussive blast not so much the noise.
I don't shoot that often now but after sending 30+ rounds downrange in a comp I'll go home with a 'blocked' feeling in my head similar to a flu/head cold, wake up with a headache and 'hung over' feeling the next day.
I often shoot next to rifle's with brakes in the comps I shoot and the noise is covered by plugs and muffs however the concussive wave isn't.
I'm 48 this year and recently had a gearing test indicating over 60db loss across a few frequency steps in both ears.
The crickets in my ears now need the radio on pretty loud to drown them out.
I find screaming kids and gunshots give me an instant headache now and are honestly painful.
I wear plugs and muffs however the damage is done and whatever damage I have sustained appears to now be aggravated by the concussive blast not so much the noise.
I don't shoot that often now but after sending 30+ rounds downrange in a comp I'll go home with a 'blocked' feeling in my head similar to a flu/head cold, wake up with a headache and 'hung over' feeling the next day.
I often shoot next to rifle's with brakes in the comps I shoot and the noise is covered by plugs and muffs however the concussive wave isn't.
Kings X
Gold $$ Contributor
Take it from a 70 year old that has been shooting 49 years.
I now have a Re-Sound hearing aid in the left ear and a Cochlear Implant in my right.
I still cannot hear.
Custom molded plugs are best. Some are sold at gun shows and some are made by the folks that make hearing aids. They are cheap as compared to this $200,000 implant.
DO IT NOW for everyone around guns.
I now have a Re-Sound hearing aid in the left ear and a Cochlear Implant in my right.
I still cannot hear.
Custom molded plugs are best. Some are sold at gun shows and some are made by the folks that make hearing aids. They are cheap as compared to this $200,000 implant.
DO IT NOW for everyone around guns.
Chappy
Silver $$ Contributor
As I where hearing aids and do my business for my ear molds for the aids through CostCo, I also have them make me a new set of solid ear molds that fit tightly and correctly to my ears. Plus muffs on top of that. Being born 50% deaf in both ears, I try to save what little I have left. You might whine, bitch, and complain having to fork up $150 and 3 hours of your time now but it'll make a huge difference in the long haul.
Somebody asks a question about hearing protection and the anecdotal evidence comes pouring out of every orifice!
First, If you effectively plug your ear canal, your mastoid bone conducts sound with about 40 dB reduction over your open ear canal.
You CANNOT cover your mastoid bone as your complete skull is connected to the mastoid bone. The mastoid bone is what's discussed as the ear resides there.
practically speaking, you cannot get a muff to effectively seal to your skull, hence the common 25 dB NRR or so.
When discussing NRR you must understand what it means. OSHA rules say a manufacturer must measure the best attenuation a protective device offers then subtract the statistical error that can be caused by mis-application or poor inserting. In the case of a cheap foamie, the best attenuation is about 38-40 dB and the possibility if mis inserting is major! That is why foamies are rated around 26-28 dB. The muffs on the other hand do not have as much variability in fitting, but have way less attenuation at best hence the 26 to 28 dB attenuation.
Many folks use muffs over foamies. Why? Foamies, correctly inserted, afford the best attenuation available! And muffs do not make it any better as the mastoid is the limiting factor.
Personally, I use Etymotic Research GSB-15 electronic blast protectors. They are rated at 26-28 dB, but inserted correctly with the correct fitting tip approach 38 dB. And, they have a compressor amplifier that allows you to hear soft sounds normally and with very high fidelity. As the sound level goes up, the gain goes down till at an ambient sound pressure level of around 90 dB SPL, the gain is unity, or what comes in goes to the ear canal. However, once the sound level gets to 117dB SPL, the amplifier cannot go higher. So, if you are firing a large rifle with an impulse noise of around 160 dB SPL, your ear only hears 117 dB SPL of that for an effective attenuation of about 40 dB.. RIGHT! about the same as the mastoid bone! Can't get any better than that.
What gives me the right to say all these things? First, a BSEE as well as the graduate course in Audiology and a hearing aid dispensers license. And working in Research and product development for the ear the last decade of my career.
First, If you effectively plug your ear canal, your mastoid bone conducts sound with about 40 dB reduction over your open ear canal.
You CANNOT cover your mastoid bone as your complete skull is connected to the mastoid bone. The mastoid bone is what's discussed as the ear resides there.
practically speaking, you cannot get a muff to effectively seal to your skull, hence the common 25 dB NRR or so.
When discussing NRR you must understand what it means. OSHA rules say a manufacturer must measure the best attenuation a protective device offers then subtract the statistical error that can be caused by mis-application or poor inserting. In the case of a cheap foamie, the best attenuation is about 38-40 dB and the possibility if mis inserting is major! That is why foamies are rated around 26-28 dB. The muffs on the other hand do not have as much variability in fitting, but have way less attenuation at best hence the 26 to 28 dB attenuation.
Many folks use muffs over foamies. Why? Foamies, correctly inserted, afford the best attenuation available! And muffs do not make it any better as the mastoid is the limiting factor.
Personally, I use Etymotic Research GSB-15 electronic blast protectors. They are rated at 26-28 dB, but inserted correctly with the correct fitting tip approach 38 dB. And, they have a compressor amplifier that allows you to hear soft sounds normally and with very high fidelity. As the sound level goes up, the gain goes down till at an ambient sound pressure level of around 90 dB SPL, the gain is unity, or what comes in goes to the ear canal. However, once the sound level gets to 117dB SPL, the amplifier cannot go higher. So, if you are firing a large rifle with an impulse noise of around 160 dB SPL, your ear only hears 117 dB SPL of that for an effective attenuation of about 40 dB.. RIGHT! about the same as the mastoid bone! Can't get any better than that.
What gives me the right to say all these things? First, a BSEE as well as the graduate course in Audiology and a hearing aid dispensers license. And working in Research and product development for the ear the last decade of my career.
I have Etymotic Research GSB-15 electronic blast protectors and use the foam plug tips. Wore then at my last comp, braked rifles under a tin roof.
They did not give me enough protection and the shots were painful to my ears. They work fine out on an open range or hunting however.
I have Peltor Tac Pros and will go back to these even though they are a pain in the arse for any comps requiring active and alternative shooting positions.
Might just be 'anecdotal evidence' but this is what is my experience.
As I said before whatever damage I have done in the past no matter the hearing protection I use I still experience effects after shooting a comp.
They did not give me enough protection and the shots were painful to my ears. They work fine out on an open range or hunting however.
I have Peltor Tac Pros and will go back to these even though they are a pain in the arse for any comps requiring active and alternative shooting positions.
Might just be 'anecdotal evidence' but this is what is my experience.
As I said before whatever damage I have done in the past no matter the hearing protection I use I still experience effects after shooting a comp.
Cassidy -
Howdy !
Classic ear " muffs " ( headphones ) afre " passive " devices.
You need to take " active " measures.
For those shooting situations where a " suppressed " firearm is not an attractive of option,
the use of " Active Noise Suppression " type headsets is another way to go.
These generate " white noise " or their own sound ways attuned to null-out the incoming " noise ".
Wear of both ear plugs + " muffs " is better than use of either item on their own.
You may be doing other things, that are having their own negative impact on your hearing.\
You should consider wearing hearing protection during things like power sawing, hammering, operating
heavy equipment, using impact type air tools; and so forth. The cumulative effects of such loud noise can at length be just as-bad-as shooting, in the long term.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
With regards,
357Mag
Howdy !
Classic ear " muffs " ( headphones ) afre " passive " devices.
You need to take " active " measures.
For those shooting situations where a " suppressed " firearm is not an attractive of option,
the use of " Active Noise Suppression " type headsets is another way to go.
These generate " white noise " or their own sound ways attuned to null-out the incoming " noise ".
Wear of both ear plugs + " muffs " is better than use of either item on their own.
You may be doing other things, that are having their own negative impact on your hearing.\
You should consider wearing hearing protection during things like power sawing, hammering, operating
heavy equipment, using impact type air tools; and so forth. The cumulative effects of such loud noise can at length be just as-bad-as shooting, in the long term.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
With regards,
357Mag
Just looking at the Etymotic Research page and cannot see a GSB-15 model. They have a GSP-15 and an EB-15. Any hands on opinions of what the practical difference is?
FWIW, I read a couple reviews of the GSP15 a while back and they seemed good for outdoor shooting like trap and clays. The problems came when they were used indoors or at a range with a number of other people shooting. In that situation, molded plugs were reported to work better.
FWIW, I read a couple reviews of the GSP15 a while back and they seemed good for outdoor shooting like trap and clays. The problems came when they were used indoors or at a range with a number of other people shooting. In that situation, molded plugs were reported to work better.
I was wrong! It is GSP-15!
Dino67 I trust you have tried all the different tips to find those that fit the best.
I started with the foam tips. You have to be VERY careful inserting them, as you do with foamies. Roll them between thumb and forefinger and quickly insert into ear canal and hold in place till foam stops expanding. The foam tips get pretty grotty so I started using the silicon tips with 3 ridges. These are way easier to get in. In any case, the tip MUST seal in the ear canal or you will not get full attenuation.
It IS worth the time to find out the best tip and proper insertion! They are as good as foamies when inserted properly. And, you will find when the guy on the next bench asks you a question, you will clearly hear him. And when a bunch of folks are shooting, the din reduces and when you or the guy on the next bench shoots, it is way reduced.
Dino67 I trust you have tried all the different tips to find those that fit the best.
I started with the foam tips. You have to be VERY careful inserting them, as you do with foamies. Roll them between thumb and forefinger and quickly insert into ear canal and hold in place till foam stops expanding. The foam tips get pretty grotty so I started using the silicon tips with 3 ridges. These are way easier to get in. In any case, the tip MUST seal in the ear canal or you will not get full attenuation.
It IS worth the time to find out the best tip and proper insertion! They are as good as foamies when inserted properly. And, you will find when the guy on the next bench asks you a question, you will clearly hear him. And when a bunch of folks are shooting, the din reduces and when you or the guy on the next bench shoots, it is way reduced.
Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. Norm, I'm particularly grateful for your information. Took my 7 year old granddaughter on a date a few Saturday mornings ago (I do this will all of my grandchildren intermittantly) and had a hard time hearing her - I had to ask her to repeat herself several times over the course of the morning. Got to decide whether to shoot or be a grandpa.
Several points to consider.
1. The NRR (noise reduction rating) is determined by "experimenter" fit, not user fit, and trained listeners during the testing period. This results in inflated protection numbers compared to real-world protection.
2. Any disruptions in the protector/skin seal will greatly reduce the effectiveness. Think eye glass temple bars, lots of hair, ear wax, etc. A 5% leak results in a 50% reduction in effectiveness.
3. Double protection gives only 5-10 dB extra protection.
4. Bone conduction gives about 50 dB protection so hearing protectors are the weak link, not bones.
5. Keep the protectors in/on your ears. Over 8 hours, if you remove them for only 30 minutes (cumulative), the effective protection is cut in half.
6. NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health) recommends derating the labeled NRR as follows:
Muffs-Subtract 25% from label NRR
Foam plugs (formable inserts)- Subtract 50% from the label NRR
All others - Subtract 70% from the label NRR
So, if you are using a really good muff with NRR of 33 and a foam plug with NRR of 27, the real-world NRR would be about 35 dB, at best. This would attenuate a gunshot by that amount. The key is time versus exposure. With good hearing protection we can increase exposure but at some point, even the best hearing protection will not keep us from going over a damage threshold. Limit the exposure and you limit the dose. Too many variables to be specific. What you are shooting, what others around are shooting, how close you are to muzzles, and where the shooting is taking place.
1. The NRR (noise reduction rating) is determined by "experimenter" fit, not user fit, and trained listeners during the testing period. This results in inflated protection numbers compared to real-world protection.
2. Any disruptions in the protector/skin seal will greatly reduce the effectiveness. Think eye glass temple bars, lots of hair, ear wax, etc. A 5% leak results in a 50% reduction in effectiveness.
3. Double protection gives only 5-10 dB extra protection.
4. Bone conduction gives about 50 dB protection so hearing protectors are the weak link, not bones.
5. Keep the protectors in/on your ears. Over 8 hours, if you remove them for only 30 minutes (cumulative), the effective protection is cut in half.
6. NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health) recommends derating the labeled NRR as follows:
Muffs-Subtract 25% from label NRR
Foam plugs (formable inserts)- Subtract 50% from the label NRR
All others - Subtract 70% from the label NRR
So, if you are using a really good muff with NRR of 33 and a foam plug with NRR of 27, the real-world NRR would be about 35 dB, at best. This would attenuate a gunshot by that amount. The key is time versus exposure. With good hearing protection we can increase exposure but at some point, even the best hearing protection will not keep us from going over a damage threshold. Limit the exposure and you limit the dose. Too many variables to be specific. What you are shooting, what others around are shooting, how close you are to muzzles, and where the shooting is taking place.
If you are young and don't want to end up with profound hearing loss like I have along with the others who posted here, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use hearing protection. And if I may, lather on the SPF 50 ---this is from a guy who is social security/medicare eligible, has 2 Re-Sound aids at a not so cheap 2k EACH, had multiple sun induced cancerous and pre-cancerous lesions removed and now has religion!
When I was young you never wore ear gear and laughed at the ringing after 100 rounds of 12 gauge at the skeet range. You also used iodine in baby oil to potentiate the sun--can you say stupid.
Now we live with the consequences.
Be smarter than I was.
Gary
When I was young you never wore ear gear and laughed at the ringing after 100 rounds of 12 gauge at the skeet range. You also used iodine in baby oil to potentiate the sun--can you say stupid.
Now we live with the consequences.
Be smarter than I was.
Gary
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