military selects Sig to replace Baretta M9

[USMCDOC]

When you are forced to shoot ball ammo,
there is but one choice, the 45.
In the 70s when the 9MM became the goto
cal for LE, in the 39 & 59 S&W. On its inception, the lack
of stopping power, even w/the best HP ammo
was an unknown.
I believe it was Gun World that did an article on the
expansion of the 9 and it proved to be lacking in
human stopping power. On car sheet metal and windshields,
it punched nice neat round holes, and just about the same in
duksell(SP), which was a substance that closely resembled
human tissue.
After reading these results, I sold my 39 & 59 an reverted back to the .357 as my duty weapon. In that era the high capacity
9s became know as the spray and pray round. LDS

There have been several incidents of ammo failure with the 9mm, like the one i remember reading about once about the ISP hitting this guy 13 times with Win ST's 115 gr and he didn't die from the wounds, but from a heart attack.. i think that it was a biker.. The bullets hardly penetrated the leather the guy was wearing.

 

[DRNewcomb]

Sig had

In actual documented one shot stop shootings, there is no difference in stopping power between 45 ball ammo and 9mm ball ammo. Evan Marshall did a ton of research on stopping power of different calibers with different types of ammo in over 11,000 actual shootings. Just read his book called street stoppers.

This argument has been going on since the Moro Rebellion. I doubt it will end any time soon.

 

[FatBoy]

There have been several incidents of ammo failure with the 9mm, like the one i remember reading about once about the ISP hitting this guy 13 times with Win ST's 115 gr and he didn't die from the wounds, but from a heart attack.. i think that it was a biker.. The bullets hardly penetrated the leather the guy was wearing.

Someone needed to practice their Mozambique. That last shot would have solved the penetration issue.

 

[matthias]

No kidding FATBOY, shot placement is everything.

 

[dickn52]

2 and 1 is the correct method.

 

[Lapua40X]

How does that relate with "Ball Ammo"?

The original post didn't make reference to ammo, just that the military had selected the Sig. Taj made a comment "Still a mousey 9mm I'm guessing." "Mousy is a term used to describe something that is inherently weak. The 9mm is not inherently weak. Its effectiveness relates to the ammo selected. No impact, Maggies Drawers on that one.

 

[hoz53]

The original post didn't make reference to ammo, just that the military had selected the Sig. Taj made a comment "Still a mousey 9mm I'm guessing." "Mousy is a term used to describe something that is inherently weak. The 9mm is not inherently weak. Its effectiveness relates to the ammo selected. No impact, Maggies Drawers on that one.

What I read said they hadn't selected caliber yet

 

[Lapua40X]

What I read said they hadn't selected caliber yet

Still a mousey 9mm I'm guessing.

I'm curious why the Sig now. Did they have this model when they popped for the M9?
Understand, from what I've read, I'd rather have a Sig.........just a 45 ACP afficionado.

 

[Lapua40X]

There have been several incidents of ammo failure with the 9mm, like the one i remember reading about once about the ISP hitting this guy 13 times with Win ST's 115 gr and he didn't die from the wounds, but from a heart attack.. i think that it was a biker.. The bullets hardly penetrated the leather the guy was wearing.

A police officer relative of mine was in a gun fight with a robbery suspect. He emptied his .38 Chief Special into the robber and the robber shot back with one shot from a 9mm. Hit the officer in the shoulder. He said it felt like a freight train; knocked him down. He got up and walked over to the staggering/wounded robbery suspect and told him to lye down or he'd kill him. He dumped his .38 .... he was a 9mm fan from that day forward. The robber was out of the hospital in three weeks. He was hospitalized for months.
I carried a 9mm for nearly a decade. Qualified with it every month. Never had a misfire, jam, misfeed. I still carry one.

 

[TAJ45]

The original post didn't make reference to ammo, just that the military had selected the Sig. Taj made a comment "Still a mousey 9mm I'm guessing." "Mousy is a term used to describe something that is inherently weak. The 9mm is not inherently weak. Its effectiveness relates to the ammo selected. No impact, Maggies Drawers on that one.

Hmm, will have to stand on the "mousey". "Inherently" is the operant adjective.

Just reflect on the effectiveness for approx 100 years of heritage of both rounds....if that much improvement has been made in construction, would it not apply to the flying ash trays, therefore BOTH of the rounds in question?

 

[carl1575]

I am sure Donald will make sure they are made in the USA .Carl in Yakima

 

[dickn52]

How can every country in the world that uses 9mm be wrong? Everyone has an opinion I suppose, but the 9mm works. I prefer a .45, but I don't work for the Government anymore. When I did I carried a Glock in 9mm. Had about 1111 zillion bullets in it and it weighs about half a ton or so. But it worked.

 

[johnfred1965]

I would say that the Army's use of the 9mm is somewhat equivalent to the use of the 5.56mm in battle, more firepower and enough to wound your enemy, thus putting a burden on the opposition to care for their wounded. However, if you are down to using your pistol in a firefight, the enemy is close, and wounding may not be enough to stop an attack. They better train up the recruits on double taps.

So much for ammo, as for the Sig, I have been looking longingly at the 320 since they came out, just wondering where the money to buy one will come from!

 

[DRNewcomb]

I would say that the Army's use of the 9mm is somewhat equivalent to the use of the 5.56mm in battle, more firepower and enough to wound your enemy, ....

Also the consideration that rifle is no longer the soldier's primary weapon. The radio, laser target designator or anti-tank missile are. There were many reason the military went with 9 mm, including standardization with NATO, ballistic improvements, less recoil, easier training, etc. The .45 reminds me of what someone said about my old Gravely lawn tractor, "What are you doing with a Gravely? Every other Gravely owner I've known was a big guy."

 

[nicholst55]

I am sure Donald will make sure they are made in the USA .Carl in Yakima

Sigs are built in New Hampshire.

 

[MTmagazine]

Johnfred...I picked one up about 8 months ago and it has become my favorite handgun. I have had a Berreta for years, and no issues with it at all, but this 320 hasshown to shoot very well, great accuracy, no feed problems as of yet, and incredibly easy to field strip and clean!!!
MT

 

[madderg]

The quality, and detail of the Sig P 320 is so much more than the others could offer. The factory is very new with newer CNC and they keep an eye on quality. I own several Sigs and have called to let them know how happy I was with the product. As a long time NRA instructor, I loved that they were always the most accurate, out of the box. They tell me every barrel they make is match quality. Over 16 years, I believe them.

 

[Rtheurer]

Thank Goodness... They should have called it the M18 instead of the M17 because it will be Twice the side arm as the M9!!!
Finally a side arm that will actually fit a Soldiers hand instead of the Goliath grip of the M9. All calibers aside... I don't care if it was chambered in 50AE if the troop cant shoot it.. It does not matter one bit does it?

I just taught a class of about 60 troops in November on the M9. I despise it... But that is just me. Of course they gave me the CSM... Never fails. LOL

Russel

 

[NewLiberty]

I never could see anything "wrong" with the 1911.....

 

[DRNewcomb]

I never could see anything "wrong" with the 1911.....

It should have been ambidextrous, so you could use both your saber and pistol at the same time.