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Meloniting? Watch for excessive pressure.

Local Knoxville area shooting buddy and I sent some 7mm barrels to be nitrided (Melonite process)….his cut-back, rechambered and thoroughly cleaned 7RM (approx 1500 shots) and my 2 new 7RSAUMs (thoroughly cleaned after 25 shots to establish speed/accuracy baselines).

With 4831sc and 180 Berger hybrids, our before treatment loads were in the 2970 fps range.

After treatment, we really, really cleaned the bores before shooting the first time. I started out following Frank Green’s (owner/manager of Bartlein Barrels) suggestion to stroke the bore 100 times with steel wool but chickened out after 60 strokes and switched to many strokes of Iosso paste and JB. The bore did not look like I had touched it. I loaded a nylon bristle brush with steel wool and Iosso, chucked it into my electric drill and honed the chamber full speed for about a minute… with result that chamber was still black, but more shiney.

Early last month we both loaded up our base-line charges and went to the range. Expecting similar speeds as baseline, our first shots were a huge surprise... way over pressure. Had to hammer our bolts open. Cases were trash. My speed was 3108 fps! His was in very high 3000’s. With subsequent shots the first day our speeds dropped about 25 fps, and bolt lift eased somewhat, but we both still trashed about a dozen cases.

After several trips to range and over 300 fire-forming shots, I have now reduced my charge by 3.5 grains to get back to baseline speed. 57.5 grains vs baseline 61.0. My bore is still black but now shows some signs of getting polished by bullet passage and at least 200 more strokes with Iosso and JB paste during several cleanings. Buddy’s results were similar…..and his 1/4 moa accuracy is still there (still working on mine...new brass).

Another area shooter told me last week his new, treated barrel had increased speeds 70 fps after treatment and turned his slow shooter into a fast shooter. His was treated by a different company, so the results do not seem to be related to where the work is done. All our barrels were from different manufacturers.

After thinking about it, the speed increase makes some sense. The melonite process turns the barrel surface into a matte black finish, even on the highly pre-polished barrel exterior. We think the “roughened” finish has, in effect, reduced bore diameter.

The finish is incredibly tough. You can work up a sweat trying to polish the matte surface by hand, and get nowhere. In other words, trying to re-polish the exterior to a shiney black by hand might take many days….I won’t try….matte looks good.

Frank B
 
I recently had my 284 treated and cleaned the bore thoroughly before shooting. I cleaned up the chamber but didn't polish enough and the brass was sticking to the walls. I pulled the barrel off and with a chamber mop wrapped lightly with steel wool and buttered with JB gave it a good polishing. That did the trick and it's shooting just as it did before I sent it in. The barrel was a slick barrel when I sent it in and I don't think I gained much speed if any. I am shooting the same load as before with the same results. At 600yrds sunday it was stacking the bullets in 1/4 min pile.(glad to see that) I am still in my first rounds of testing and don't have enough information to give a complete report.
 
LongRanger, The barrel with 1500 rounds from what I have read was not a good barrel to treat. All of the 7mm Mag barrels that I have borescoped ( 7-8) had fire cracking at that point. I have seen 6.5mm barrels with fire cracking that started to have pressure issues, it makes sense to me when the surface gets rough the friction can go up.
 
I have had a lot of them treated. No problems with any of them. They do not recommend treating barrels that have a bunch of rounds on them.!500 rounds! Gosh no!
If you really think you have a problem, did you contact your supplier or just jump on the internet. The Army has done several thousand and say they may have an increase of 1% in velocity.
 
Several years ago I learned a hard lesson about melonite and tolerances. Melonite is said, by the company in TN that did my parts and does many other pistol makers parts, to be 3 microns thick. This equates to .00012". When you add that up between a slide and barrel or bushing and barrel it makes for a gun that won't go into lock up at the tolerances I use.

I won't even bore you with the numbers that I worked up but suffice it to say, if you have a slide that has an ID of .703" and a barrel with an OD of .7025" and then melonite it, the gun refuses to function until you lap it back in and increase the tolerance gap.

Not sure if any of that makes sense to you but my thinking on what you posted based on your results leads me to believe that the .00012 thickness of melonite on a single radial point in the bore times the circumference could make a difference on pressure until it is polished out.

Ultimately the reason I didn't use it anymore was because it is run at such high temps, over 900F from what they told me, it did not allow for me to have the smaller parts of the guns coated such as the extractor, ejector, etc.

Anyways, that's been my experience. It seems like a great coating, just doesn't work for what I desired, unlike other coatings such as IonBond and regular good old fashioned hot bluing.
 
In 10 or so barrels that where Saltbath nitride treated not one exibited loss of accuracy. In every case the rifle exibited equal or better accuracy on the Machine rest.
Loads where developed and bulletseating depth set for best accuracy then cleaned sent off to be treated and when returned tested again on the Machine rest.
This was all in 223 in a Wylde Chamber on a 20" AR.

Hope this helps.

RussT
 
Joe C said:
Several years ago I learned a hard lesson about melonite and tolerances. Melonite is said, by the company in TN that did my parts and does many other pistol makers parts, to be 3 microns thick. This equates to .00012". When you add that up between a slide and barrel or bushing and barrel it makes for a gun that won't go into lock up at the tolerances I use.

I won't even bore you with the numbers that I worked up but suffice it to say, if you have a slide that has an ID of .703" and a barrel with an OD of .7025" and then melonite it, the gun refuses to function until you lap it back in and increase the tolerance gap.

Not sure if any of that makes sense to you but my thinking on what you posted based on your results leads me to believe that the .00012 thickness of melonite on a single radial point in the bore times the circumference could make a difference on pressure until it is polished out.

Ultimately the reason I didn't use it anymore was because it is run at such high temps, over 900F from what they told me, it did not allow for me to have the smaller parts of the guns coated such as the extractor, ejector, etc.

Anyways, that's been my experience. It seems like a great coating, just doesn't work for what I desired, unlike other coatings such as IonBond and regular good old fashioned hot bluing.

Joe, it may be 3 microns thick, but it is not a coating or buildup. The treatment treats 3 microns deep, not on top. Bear in mid my Deltronic pins are only in .0001 increments, but I would think I could feel it if it changed.
 
butchlambert said:
Joe, it may be 3 microns thick, but it is not a coating or buildup. The treatment treats 3 microns deep, not on top. Bear in mid my Deltronic pins are only in .0001 increments, but I would think I could feel it if it changed.

Butch,

With all due respect sir, if it doesn't build up on the surface then why did pistols that functioned perfectly previous to having the melonite applied not function at all upon having the treatment. Also, why did front sights and rear sights, that previously fitted into their dovetails have to be re-fitted after the treatment because they were too tight?
 
On a side note. I have a friend/gun writer that had a Anschutz barrel done for an upcoming article. After having it melonited it shot like crap and sometimes the fired cases would not extract.

For what it's worth.
 
If that's the case he didn't clean it when done. I'll bet he never visited with whoever did it. He just started a badmouth campaign.
 
GrocMax said:
I wonder if electroless nickel boron nitride plating, or a DLC type coating might be a better choice.
Those treatments are great, but they are a buildup and the amount is very hard to control to get an even amount inside a bore.
 
Butch, it was only after reading of your and Russ's extensive experience with the process and learning of Joel's involvement that I decided to give meloniting a try.
I have absolutely no complaints about the process or the results and from this point on will have all my barrels treated. My only purpose for the thread was to state that the treatment does involve a change in the barrel and that caution would be wise when working up loads based on prior results.

I guess the wisdom of treating a barrel with as many as 1500 rounds depends on the circumstances. My buddy's 32" Krieger barrel was an absolute hummer and shot consistently under 1/4 moa at 600 yards. Day after day, group after group under 2". Even with his conservative loads he was going to soon be facing the need for another barrel....with great odds agains getting another hummer for another $700 investment in barrel and chambering. So, he had his smith cut 1" off the breach end and rechamber it with the same reamer. After a few shots to wear off the burrs, he cleaned it and packed it up with mine to be sent off for treatment... which sure did NOT hurt his barrel! After working up new loads for it, he once again has it shooting 1/4 moa....probably and hopefully for as long as he lives.

I tend to side with Joe C on dimension changes due to my experience Monday while fire-forming a bunch of new 7rsaum brass....25 rounds each (it was a very cold day) of 180 SMK, 175 SMK, 180 VLD Berger and 162 Amax. I measured the diameters of each with my Starret micrometer. .2843, .2840, .2840 and .2839 respectively. All were fired with the same powder charge. The 180 SMK's averaged 2939 fps, about 30 fps faster than the others which were all within a coupla fps of 2909. The Amax speeds surprised me...maybe slow because they are skinnier, and being lighter were not offering as much resistance?????.

Frank B.
 
Frank,
If he cut enough off and got rid of the alligator, it should work. What are you measuring? I'm really not used to bullets varying that much. Nothing to do with Melonite, but I have played with different brands of bullets with the same weight, but different ogives. They definitely shoot different, but with very little speed difference.

My main concern is that people jump on a forum and complain before visiting with the supplier. I'm certainly not saying folks do not have problems, but they should visit with the vendor that they feel didn't do what they hoped for.
 
Butch, I measure midway along the bearing surface. Without even measuring, the difference between bullets can be detected easily with calipers by locking the jaws on a bullet and seeing if other brands pass between the jaws or hang up.When I locked the jaws on the 180 SMK and removed it, the other bullets dropped through the jaws with surprising ease.

I don't know if they still do or not, but Bartlein and maybe other barrel makers offered barrels of each caliber wherein the bores/rifling were cut tighter/looser by a few ten-thousandths. Depending on bullet selection, I suspect the final result would be a slow shooter or a fast shooter.

Frank B.
 
Well, Bartlien and Kreiger for example offer a .236 and a .237 bore size for 6mm. If you pin them you will find they vary from that size. Not much, but the are not exactly the size marked. On BR bullets the bearing size does not vary in a lot. We are not talking and barrel treatment here, but I have not really seen appreciable difference in velocity between the .001 difference in bore diameter. I have an Ohler 35 Chrono. I'm talking a max of 2% and the funny thing is, it did not relate to different bullet diameter or bore size. Please don't ask as I do not have an answer.
 
butchlambert said:
My main concern is that people jump on a forum and complain before visiting with the supplier. I'm certainly not saying folks do not have problems, but they should visit with the vendor that they feel didn't do what they hoped for.

Butch,

I wasn't complaining in my explanation regarding what happened with my several experiences and what was a measurable difference in tolerance change. I was simply stating the facts of the numbers and the results. If you don't like that I'm not going to apologize. After it happened to me on not one, not two, not three but FOUR precisely fit 1911's in a row, I did call the company that does it and did talk to the tech guy and that is when he confirmed with me about the tolerance stacking issue. It does exist, just like with IonBond but obviously not as bad as hard chrome. And I'm not the only professional smith that has had issues with it on pistols. In fact, I know of two others who have personally told me of similar issues that I described.

BTW, with IonBond and other DLC coatings they can not do the inside of a barrel as it is "line of sight" coating only. But then they also don't expose the metal to such high temps as Melonite does at +900F.

Like yourself, I'm not here to argue and such, but people deserve to hear the other side of the story. If you don't like my experience, don't read my posts, but they are real world experience regarding a mechanical device that worked before coating, and did not work after coating due to a tolerance change. It's not a matter of "getting on the internet and bad mouthing". It's a matter of shared experience. And as with anything on the interwebz, YMMV.

And by the way, I'm enjoying my Shadetree very much. ;-)
 

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