Making 6.5BRX brass?

[solid_squirrel]

Hello folks. I am building a 6.5BRX AR-15. I am totally noobtastic. This will be my first rifle. I was wondering if it would be possible for someone to walk me through making the brass*. I have no reloading equipment at all. I would aso love to hear any other thoughts or info at all. The barrel I'll be using will be chambered for no-neck-turn, newer Lapua brass; it's a Krieger Criterion, 20", 1:8, 410 stainless, SPR profile .840" under the guards, rifle gas. Thanks!

*Or just tell me what I need at minimum, if you'd rather.

 

[cmillard]

get yourself an expander mandrel in .264 so that you can expand the necks. seat a primer, find a starting load seat the bullet to jam and fire away. the shoulder will blow forward during the firing process. you may along the way have to up the powder charge since the first firings were a light charge and may not have properly formed the brass. i would use some 4895 or varget to start out with. also, use some cheap, lightweight bullets for the forming process.

 

[fdshuster]

Ditto what Cole said, the way I form my 6 BRX brass. I am using a smaller than normal neck bushing (.004" rather than .002"), to hold the bullet tighter in the neck, seat with the bullet touching the lands or slightly jammed, and I prefer to use a flat base bullet that will fill the case neck, down to the neck/shoulder junction. The whole idea is to have the cartridge locked up in the chamber so it cannot move forward when the firing pin hits. Fireforming load is reduced by 2 or 3 grains from the normal charge & bullet weight is anything from 85+ grains, whatever I have laying around. Works for me, with a fully formed case with one firing.

 

[bozo699]

Hello folks. I am building a 6.5BRX AR-15. I am totally noobtastic. This will be my first rifle. I was wondering if it would be possible for someone to walk me through making the brass*. I have no reloading equipment at all. I would aso love to hear any other thoughts or info at all. The barrel I'll be using will be chambered for no-neck-turn, newer Lapua brass; it's a Krieger Criterion, 20", 1:8, 410 stainless, SPR profile .840" under the guards, rifle gas. Thanks!

*Or just tell me what I need at minimum, if you'd rather.

solid_squirrel,
Welcome to the forum. I am not AR guy so I can't help you there but you might want to ask if it will reliably feed before you start the build. Read how to fireform on the link I am giving you and then ask about what you didn't understand it will explain three different methods of forming the brass, I use method #1 there is also the cream of wheat method but I didn't have as much luck that way with this particular cartridge and neither did fdshuster who helped me out quite a bit when I started with the 6brx. of course neck diameters and such listed will have to be changed to 6.5 data also read as much as you can find on here about 6brx forming and loading issues because other then bullets and powder charge it's going to be about the same, like I said after you have read up on this stuff you will have a lot better idea of what is going on and we won't have to rewrite it all, but will be happy to fill you in on what you didn't understand.
Wayne.
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html

 

[fdshuster]

Another ditto, this time to what Wayne said about feeding in a semi-auto. I did not address the issue, simply because I did not think of it. Have several AR's but they are all 223 Rem., so feeding is not an issue. The vast majority of us using the BR case are single feeding, and most of those are bolt-actions, so you should hook-up with someone very familiar with the potential problems. One of the most experienced is Robert Whitley, www.6mmAR.com.

 

[solid_squirrel]

Thanks everyone! I'd found some of this, but wasn't sure if an improved and BRX case were, strictly speaking, synonymous (or how different a 6BRX, a 6.5BR, and a 6.5BRX were, if it was more than neck ID, or how far forward the shoulder was blown). I've been looking at Robert Whitley's site, as well as 6mmbr.com, both are excellent, I'm just new to all this, but you guys have helped a lot already. I am used to working in thousandths, with micrometers and such, at least.

The place I'm getting the barrel sells complete 6.5BR ARs as well as uppers, and as I understand it, feeding should not be altered from the blown-forward shoulder. But I guess I wouldn't do it if I absolutely needed it to feed reliably above all else. I am dealing with a place called ar15performance. The reason I went with them is that I wanted a 6.5BRX, as well as their bolt design. Check out the bolt you get with a 6/6.5BR barrel. It's the one on the far right, in the picture of 4 bolts:

http://ar15performance.com/new_products

 

[bozo699]

Thanks everyone! I'd found some of this, but wasn't sure if an improved and BRX case were, strictly speaking, synonymous (or how different a 6BRX, a 6.5BR, and a 6.5BRX were, if it was more than neck ID, or how far forward the shoulder was blown). I've been looking at Robert Whitley's site, as well as 6mmbr.com, both are excellent, I'm just new to all this, but you guys have helped a lot already. I am used to working in thousandths, with micrometers and such, at least.

The place I'm getting the barrel sells complete 6.5BR ARs as well as uppers, and as I understand it, feeding should not be altered from the blown-forward shoulder. But I guess I wouldn't do it if I absolutely needed it to feed reliably above all else. I am dealing with a place called ar15performance. The reason I went with them is that I wanted a 6.5BRX, as well as their bolt design. Check out the bolt you get with a 6/6.5BR barrel. It's the one on the far right, in the picture of 4 bolts:

http://ar15performance.com/new_products

Squirrel,
The shoulder is blown forward .100 the cartridge length is the same although my 6brx cases after forming are a little shorter but just a few thou. I would think if the 6.5BR would feed so would the improved but before you spend all the money Franks suggestion of getting a hold of Whitley is sound advice also here is a link to cartridge diagrams you could email the 6brx print to ar15 performance and see what they think as well, let us know what they said. As far as the 6brx goes I have absolutely fell in love with the little guy, easy to load and tune and fun to shoot and the cases seem to last forever, I forgot what Frank said last load count was on his original brass but it was up there and going strong , I believe I have close to 15 on my original cases and have only lost a couple and I think that was on the initial forming. you will want a bag on the side of you ar or something to catch the brass it's to costly and time consuming to fireform to loose. Fireforming may be another issue for you I don't know for sure but it may be that you will have to fireform in a bolt gun cut with the same reamer if possible that is another question you should ask Robert when you contact him and if the process is a little different for a gas gun, home to hear from you soon.
Wayne.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/cartridgediagrams/

 

[solid_squirrel]

Thanks everyone! I'd found some of this, but wasn't sure if an improved and BRX case were, strictly speaking, synonymous (or how different a 6BRX, a 6.5BR, and a 6.5BRX were, if it was more than neck ID, or how far forward the shoulder was blown). I've been looking at Robert Whitley's site, as well as 6mmbr.com, both are excellent, I'm just new to all this, but you guys have helped a lot already. I am used to working in thousandths, with micrometers and such, at least.

The place I'm getting the barrel sells complete 6.5BR ARs as well as uppers, and as I understand it, feeding should not be altered from the blown-forward shoulder. But I guess I wouldn't do it if I absolutely needed it to feed reliably above all else. I am dealing with a place called ar15performance. The reason I went with them is that I wanted a 6.5BRX, as well as their bolt design. Check out the bolt you get with a 6/6.5BR barrel. It's the one on the far right, in the picture of 4 bolts:

http://ar15performance.com/new_products

Squirrel,
The shoulder is blown forward .100 the cartridge length is the same although my 6brx cases after forming are a little shorter but just a few thou. I would think if the 6.5BR would feed so would the improved but before you spend all the money Franks suggestion of getting a hold of Whitley is sound advice also here is a link to cartridge diagrams you could email the 6brx print to ar15 performance and see what they think as well, let us know what they said. As far as the 6brx goes I have absolutely fell in love with the little guy, easy to load and tune and fun to shoot and the cases seem to last forever, I forgot what Frank said last load count was on his original brass but it was up there and going strong , I believe I have close to 15 on my original cases and have only lost a couple and I think that was on the initial forming. you will want a bag on the side of you ar or something to catch the brass it's to costly and time consuming to fireform to loose. Fireforming may be another issue for you I don't know for sure but it may be that you will have to fireform in a bolt gun cut with the same reamer if possible that is another question you should ask Robert when you contact him and if the process is a little different for a gas gun, home to hear from you soon.
Wayne.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/cartridgediagrams/

I will report back with Mr. Whitley's response. By the way, here is what it says on ar15performance regarding maing brass for their 6.5BR barrels:

A Sinclair expander die and E26 mandrel will be required to neck up the 6BR cases. Then use a 7mmBR bushing die set to resize the fired cases.

 

[bozo699]

I will report back with Mr. Whitley's response. By the way, here is what it says on ar15performance regarding maing brass for their 6.5BR barrels:

A Sinclair expander die and E26 mandrel will be required to neck up the 6BR cases. Then use a 7mmBR bushing die set to resize the fired cases.

[/quote]
That advice sounds spot on to me, remember you will have to raise the die above the shell holder approximately .098-.100 or you will size them back to br size or just crush the case.
Wayne.

 

[solid_squirrel]

I will report back with Mr. Whitley's response. By the way, here is what it says on ar15performance regarding maing brass for their 6.5BR barrels:

A Sinclair expander die and E26 mandrel will be required to neck up the 6BR cases. Then use a 7mmBR bushing die set to resize the fired cases.

That advice sounds spot on to me, remember you will have to raise the die above the shell holder approximately .098-.100 or you will size them back to br size or just crush the case.
Wayne.

Thanks. Sounds like I could make a spacer for that too. Couple questions. Why do I have to resize the cases after they're fired? What operation am I performing at that point? I also am unsure what I need beyond the dies, mandrels, reamer for the necks, etc. Do I need some kind of press? Or does the fireforming take it's place entirely? What would a basic shopping list look like? It could be as specific as a part number, or just the general term. I have a work shop, drill press, hand tools, mics, dial indicator etc. I just don't have any reloading specific equipment.

 

[fdshuster]

Contact Sinclair ( 1-800-717-8211) & request a copy of their 2011-B free catalog. they are also an advertiser on this site. They are one source of just about everything you will need.

 

[bozo699]

In addition to what Frank suggested, your going to need a couple of reloading manuals anyway so pick up a Hornaday and or a Nosler,speer,Sierra,etc. anyone of those reloading manuals will give you enough basics to assemble quality ammunition. Another favorite of mine that covers just about every thing one needs to know about precision shooting is Glen Zedikers book, Hand loading for competition, he also has one that might be tailored to you it is competitive AR15, these books can answer better then I and you need them anyway. Everything I like and use is expensive however there is inexpensive reloading equipment that will make decent ammo like Lee and RCBS so I again suggest buying a couple reloading manuals and read the reloading sections, Hornady is a good one IMO because they sometimes give best suited powders for a given cartridge and in your case they have a detailed section on how to reload and they make there own reloading equipment, speer isn't quite as good of manual IMO but there parent Co. also owns RCBS and you can see illustrations of some of the equipment and descriptions of what it does and they cover basics for reloading also, the hand loading for competition by Glen Zediker goes into more detail and the art of precision reloading and what equipment he feels is the best to by for certain needs. Hodgdon has a reloading manual that I believe is a good one as well as Lyman, you can probably get anyone of these books and manuals from the site fdshuster suggested. If you don't want to wait for the manuals tell the guy's at Sinclair when you call them what you are going to be loading for and you need everything, have your credit card ready they can and will fix you right up, that is if money is no object
Wayne.

 

[rcw3]

I hate to say this but if you are self building a non-conventional specialty parts AR-15 upper in the 6.5 BRX wildcat for the first time, and at the same time, without prior re-loading experience, going to undertake to make brass, and work up loads and make ammo, etc., my first thought is you may be stretching a little to far with a project like that. Personally I would see the project more for someone who knows their way around an AR-15 quite well already and has pretty good reloading experience.

I am also not clear what magazines you might be going to use to make sure feeding is fully reliable. With some of the build ups I have done, I have never felt that was fully 100% resolved, although I won't rule out that maybe some solution was arrived at where maybe it is. What magazines are you going to use?

Can you fire form something like that in a gas gun? Yes, if it is done with the correct technique, I do not see a problem with that.

Will it feed reliably through an AR-15? I cannot answer that as the answer to that may depend on what you may be working with for magazines and how adept you are at tweaking things to get them running 100%.

A build up like that is kind of specialty item - not standard in any sense.


Robert Whitley

 

[Spook]

Feeds fine from PRI 6.8 mags, I like the shorter version. I fireform mine in a bolt action...6,6.5,30 cal and .375 before sending them through the AR's.
If I didnt have that option I think I'd make myself a hydro-form.

 

[bozo699]

Feeds fine from PRI 6.8 mags, I like the shorter version. I fireform mine in a bolt action...6,6.5,30 cal and .375 before sending them through the AR's.
If I didnt have that option I think I'd make myself a hydro-form.

Spook,
Sounds like you know from experience with the ar's but I remember when I decided to go 6brx I studied on them for 6 months or so before I committed and built my first 6brx, I remember in all the questions the hydro dies came up, the guys that had experience with them all said they had problems at least with the brx's having case head separation after two or three loadings, they said it stretched the case in the web to much, have you used a hydro forming die before? if so did you notice this as well?
Wayne.

 

[bozo699]

I hate to say this but if you are self building a non-conventional specialty parts AR-15 upper in the 6.5 BRX wildcat for the first time, and at the same time, without prior re-loading experience, going to undertake to make brass, and work up loads and make ammo, etc., my first thought is you may be stretching a little to far with a project like that. Personally I would see the project more for someone who knows their way around an AR-15 quite well already and has pretty good reloading experience.

I am also not clear what magazines you might be going to use to make sure feeding is fully reliable. With some of the build ups I have done, I have never felt that was fully 100% resolved, although I won't rule out that maybe some solution was arrived at where maybe it is. What magazines are you going to use?

Can you fire form something like that in a gas gun? Yes, if it is done with the correct technique, I do not see a problem with that.

Will it feed reliably through an AR-15? I cannot answer that as the answer to that may depend on what you may be working with for magazines and how adept you are at tweaking things to get them running 100%.

A build up like that is kind of specialty item - not standard in any sense.


Robert Whitley

Robert,
I thought the same thing but I have so little experience with the AR's that I made little suggestions about it and stuck with reloading advice for the op, it would be quite a undertaking for the experienced. Question,...do you have dies for the 6.5 brx?
Wayne.

 

[rcw3]

Feeds fine from PRI 6.8 mags, I like the shorter version. . . .

I would not go that far based on my own use and testing of those magazines with 6BR/BRX cartridges. Can you get some of those magazines to feed a limited number of rounds with reliability? Yes, I have been able to do that. If you buy 5 of those magazines are they all likely to be "plug and play" and can you just load them up and shoot them and expect full reliability? I cannot agree with that from my own testing - maybe some others can somehow do that but I have not found that to be so.

Bear in mind, there simply is not enough width in those magazines (or the AR-15 magazine well itself) to do a proper double stack with the BR/BRX cartridges. In order for that to be so, the mag well and magazines would need to be the width of an AR-10/LR308/SR25/M1A, and they are not.

So what's that all mean? It means if you are good at culling, testing and/or tweaking with AR's you can likely get some magazines segregated that will be workable with a high degree of reliability for a limited number stack and that's good as it means there is a viable magazine option.

Robert

 

[solid_squirrel]

Thanks Robert, and everyone else; you guys have given me a substantial amount of stuff to go over, and leads to follow. Regarding the magazines; what ar15performance.com says on their site, is that all that is needed to convert to 6.5BR, is the barrel, bolt, and gen 1 PRI mags.

Bozo, I'm certain they are familiar with 6BRX - they sell complete 6BRX and 6.5BR rifles, as well as uppers, and their own proprietary barrel extension and 6/6.5BR bolt (seen on the far right):

I haven't asked them anything yet, because I wasn't sure what you wanted me to ask. I have already asked them many questions, and I've gotten good answers. I just wanted to hold off on asking the next million questions, until I send them some money. But I'll ask if you tell me the specific question(s). I think they could give me more info, I just wanted to try to minimize the amount of their time that I took up, unless I'm definitely buying something.

Robert, I'm certain you're right that it's an unreasonably complex first project. But it seems like 6/6.5BR(X)s is something ar15performance knows well, and they have not hesitated to respond to my questions so far, and this was while they were closed for a couple weeks. I figure that the worst case scenario ... OK 2nd worst case scenario, I'll put it on the shelf for as long as is needed, and can build a perfectly standard, mil-spec 5.56 AR, to help me understand them. I enjoy troubleshooting mechanical things.

 

[bozo699]

Squirrel,
With a positive and caring attitude like that you can't miss
Wayne.

 

[rcw3]

Solid Squirrel

Good luck with your project - have fun and enjoy!

I assume you are using the 6.5 BRX as a hunting round, otherwise the 6mm has (IMO) more to offer in target and varmint work (although the 6.5 BRX would also be good with light bullets for varmint work).

Robert