I have a good old m1a1 springfeild and I also have 8 pounds of retumbo theat I use for my 30-378 I was wondering if anyone had any 308 load date using retumbo
m1a1 plus retumbo
- Thread starter downthefence
- Start date
ok I understand it will be slow but I am finding 243 loads using it so is it that the 30 cal can not build up the pressure to burn it
PDS
Gold $$ Contributor
Your good old M1A will be old and not so good if you pound it with slow burning powders. A couple of pounds of medium burn rate powder will cost a lot less than any parts you might break on your M1A. Hornady has load data for the M1A in their latest manual,or check their website.
I also use varget and h322 would yall recommend either of these or what will work best
downthefence -
I shoot a good-ol-M1A as well and often. I have been shooting and reloading M1A for about 20 years and have made plenty of mistakes when loading for this fine weapon.
A long time ago, and old camp perry mate told me "when it comes to loading your own for the M1A, no faster than 3031 and no slower than RL15 - and there are plenty of powders in-between those that are not appropriate for the M1A".
I stuck with that advice and so far I have managed to slap a few bolts, and stick a few cases, but I haven't broken a M1A yet. Stay away from Retumbo in the M1A - it's way too slow and if you even get a click-wait....wait....bang......I don't want to see what happens next, especially in an older, issued, service-grade M1A.
That said, the following is a rather long post that I wrote for a fellow poster about three years ago. If you have the time, what is contained within may help you on your journey to get that grand-ol rifle back on the range.
FYI - my practice loads are made up with IMR4064, which is very available right now. My match rounds are made up with Varget....which is like winning the lottery if you can find it.
Please take the time and read the following at your leisure sir. Just a reminder, it is focused on another poster and his questions; however I think you will find some of the advice useful.
All the best - S
All of these guys have come up with extremely good suggestions and very good reasons why you need to be more judicious with M1A reloads.......so please bare with us.......we don't want to see you kaboom your weapon.
There is a very popular (and for some controversial) article out there you should read. Zediker is a guru in many circles and referenced/cited often.
It is here: http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
I'm not going to go into everything that GZ says about loading the M1A - however.......
There are a ton of great threads on other sites such as: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4158280 that are worth reading. http://m14forum.com/ammunition/101949-primary-powders-reloading-m14.html is a decent forum too if you pick through some of the fiction and find the old-timers that have many posts.
Now my two cents and a few qualifications -
I have been shooting service rifle matches for about 15 years or so (100,300,500,600 and 900 with the M1A) - all with my own reloaded ammo or mil-spec handed out at match time.
I have been reloading for a very long time and I have made most of the the mistakes......except kabooming a gun.
The tips you have chosen should serve you well with non-match paper punching out to 300 or so. Those Horny 150's are as good as it gets in the 150fmj class.
Do yourself a favor (I know you have 700rds loaded) and get away from 8208XBR with the M1A. I know it's in the 'burn rate range' of the M1A - but not all the powders between 4064 and 3031 are suitable. 8208XBR is a magnificent powder for 1K shooters shooting 155VLD's in BOLT GUNS. I use it for this purpose and it's lights out. Not so much with the M1A. The reason I recommend you steer clear of 8208XBR in your M1A is the pressure increases associated with very small upward changes in charge with 8208 are pretty severe. I have found 8208 to be a much hotter powder than represented in anyone's burn chart......including Hodgdon's chart. I'll bet you your next 8lbs of powder that you're slapping that M1A bolt pretty good with the charge you are using now. Not good for the accuracy and longevity of the weapon at all and you WILL bend an op-rod with 8208 unless you are very, very careful. I know it's not a good time to go on the hunt for more powder, but any of the 4895's (or accurate 2495) will serve you best IMO. They are versatile powders and not as prone to pressure issues - much more forgivable throughout the pressure/load range. The 4895's were made for this rifle........get IMR4895 if possible - it's the original and best performer for me, with consistent velocities lot-to-lot. Varget and IMR4064 have also served me well with various bullet weights and brands. I know pulling 700 rounds make you cringe.......heck..........it makes US cringe too because most of us have had to bite the bullet and pull boxes of rounds too........I had to pull 500 rounds of '06 for my Garand years ago because I couldn't get W788 to light with CCI200's. I'm glad I did - no more extraction problems or 'click-bags' in the colder weather - I went to CCI34's and IMR4895 and problem solved - should have done that to begin with. I shot the W788 in a 5.56 and all was right with the world again.
My next suggestion is that you get away from rem primers and go to CCI34's if you can. The rem primers have a fairly soft cup (not as soft as federal, but soft enough) and some day you might get greeted with a slam fire or out of battery detonation - either can/will ruin your day. Zediker has more on this plus pics. Pat's Reloading still has these listed for sale and so does Bruno's..........yes, I know primers are wicked expensive right now, but it's worth the investment in safety if you can get your hands on a couple thou. Remember to drop you loads down a 1/2 grain when you switch, as 34's are considered by CCI to be magnum strength. I have used CCI200's in a pinch and it worked out ok - there were no noticeable differences in accuracy after I got the load worked up.
2650fps with 150's should be your top-end velocity IMO. It won't slap your bolt around, beat up the weapon and some day you'll be able to hand it down to the grand-kids. 2600fps with SMK 168's, 2550 with SMK 175's. Your M1A should shoot like a dream at these velocities.
GET A CASE GAUGE. period. Don't load for M1A (or anything else for that matter) without one. Zediker goes into excruciating detail about this and this section is of utmost importance for all the reasons other gents in this thread and Zediker make clear. Measure every single case before you load it, you'll be glad you did. Make sure your die is set up right and you are bumping back that shoulder - that's a big deal - I have 4 M1A's and they are all chambered only 1/2 to one thou over SAMMI spec. Every one I know that has an M1A - standard, loaded, SM or surplus - all of these rifles are never over one thou SAMMI headspaced. The case headspace has to be right - this is one of the most critical dimensions to pay attention to with an M1A.
You have to be very certain that you don't jam your loads into the lands of an M1A. Pressure spikes WILL ensue and you are rolling the dice on case separations, extraction problems, cracked bolts, etc. If you have the rounds that you tried to chamber but couldn't, check them for land marks and see if you are loading your rounds too long. Freebore measurement is no easy task with the M1A - don't go over the 2.800 max for 150fmj's and they'll be right as rain. It is common to find M1A's with shallow throats - they DO NOT like long brass - 2.010 is pushing your luck actually........if you can get them back to a spec. 2.000 that would be ideal. You case gauge (or micrometer) will tell the tale - if it's long, trim it or don't load it.
Get a taper crimp die (RCBS makes one especially for 7.62 service round loads) and MILDLY crimp your bullets - cannelure or not. You won't run the risk of bullet set-back during cycling and you won't have to dink around trying to find that perfect/safe neck tension......it's the safest way for you to go for now........when you get down the road and more confident, a set of neck sizing collets and die might be in your future.
Get a Hornady reloading book - it has loads for 308 Service Rifle - namely the M1A and Garand 308. One of the best $20 you'll ever spend.
I small base size my M1A brass because I'm only going to get 4 reloads max out if them anyway (I use LC too).....and it does add a level of reliability that I prefer. I used a standard 308 die set for years and that worked fine too, until I bought the RCBS 7.62 set years ago - it comes with a SB die. I never looked back. If you think you are going to get more than 5 reloads out of your brass you are kidding yourself - and asking for trouble. The M1A is a brass-beater and I retire my brass at 4 rounds out. No - I don't own an annealer.
Sort your brass by when you bought it and when you shoot it. If it was all one-shot when you bought it fine........but keep the 1-shot, 2-shot, etc in separate batches so when......and it will happen eventually......you start to see signs that those batches are giving up the ghost you can cull the whole lot before you have to dig a case out of your weapon. It's not worth loading a batch.......or parts of a batch of brass 'one more time' and having to extract a case from a chamber. It's not as easy as the extractor instructions make it look.........it sucks actually......and you stand a chance of gauging the heck out of your rifle in the process. Retire the brass when the brass tells you it's time.......and that time is usually at 4 loadings.
My recipes (match included) for the M1A are as follows:
41.0gr IMR4895, Hornady 150fmj, LC brass @ 2.000,CCI34's, COAL at 2.800, crimped at cannelure - 2644fps ave.
41.0gr IMR4895, 168SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .020 off the lands, 2597fps ave
39.0gr RL15, 175SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .015 off the lands, 2550fps ave.
42.0gr Varget, 168Amax, LC brass (1x) @2.000, CCI34's, COAL at 2.790, mild crimp - 2680fps ave (HOG HUNTING LOAD)
Watch for pressure signs.......not all gas guns are created equal. Pancake-flattened primers with a gas gun is usually not a good thing. Like the other guys said - make sure your primers are completely seated .002 below the base.
Good luck and be safe. Enjoy that M1A!!!!
All the best,
S
I shoot a good-ol-M1A as well and often. I have been shooting and reloading M1A for about 20 years and have made plenty of mistakes when loading for this fine weapon.
A long time ago, and old camp perry mate told me "when it comes to loading your own for the M1A, no faster than 3031 and no slower than RL15 - and there are plenty of powders in-between those that are not appropriate for the M1A".
I stuck with that advice and so far I have managed to slap a few bolts, and stick a few cases, but I haven't broken a M1A yet. Stay away from Retumbo in the M1A - it's way too slow and if you even get a click-wait....wait....bang......I don't want to see what happens next, especially in an older, issued, service-grade M1A.
That said, the following is a rather long post that I wrote for a fellow poster about three years ago. If you have the time, what is contained within may help you on your journey to get that grand-ol rifle back on the range.
FYI - my practice loads are made up with IMR4064, which is very available right now. My match rounds are made up with Varget....which is like winning the lottery if you can find it.
Please take the time and read the following at your leisure sir. Just a reminder, it is focused on another poster and his questions; however I think you will find some of the advice useful.
All the best - S
All of these guys have come up with extremely good suggestions and very good reasons why you need to be more judicious with M1A reloads.......so please bare with us.......we don't want to see you kaboom your weapon.
There is a very popular (and for some controversial) article out there you should read. Zediker is a guru in many circles and referenced/cited often.
It is here: http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
I'm not going to go into everything that GZ says about loading the M1A - however.......
There are a ton of great threads on other sites such as: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4158280 that are worth reading. http://m14forum.com/ammunition/101949-primary-powders-reloading-m14.html is a decent forum too if you pick through some of the fiction and find the old-timers that have many posts.
Now my two cents and a few qualifications -
I have been shooting service rifle matches for about 15 years or so (100,300,500,600 and 900 with the M1A) - all with my own reloaded ammo or mil-spec handed out at match time.
I have been reloading for a very long time and I have made most of the the mistakes......except kabooming a gun.
The tips you have chosen should serve you well with non-match paper punching out to 300 or so. Those Horny 150's are as good as it gets in the 150fmj class.
Do yourself a favor (I know you have 700rds loaded) and get away from 8208XBR with the M1A. I know it's in the 'burn rate range' of the M1A - but not all the powders between 4064 and 3031 are suitable. 8208XBR is a magnificent powder for 1K shooters shooting 155VLD's in BOLT GUNS. I use it for this purpose and it's lights out. Not so much with the M1A. The reason I recommend you steer clear of 8208XBR in your M1A is the pressure increases associated with very small upward changes in charge with 8208 are pretty severe. I have found 8208 to be a much hotter powder than represented in anyone's burn chart......including Hodgdon's chart. I'll bet you your next 8lbs of powder that you're slapping that M1A bolt pretty good with the charge you are using now. Not good for the accuracy and longevity of the weapon at all and you WILL bend an op-rod with 8208 unless you are very, very careful. I know it's not a good time to go on the hunt for more powder, but any of the 4895's (or accurate 2495) will serve you best IMO. They are versatile powders and not as prone to pressure issues - much more forgivable throughout the pressure/load range. The 4895's were made for this rifle........get IMR4895 if possible - it's the original and best performer for me, with consistent velocities lot-to-lot. Varget and IMR4064 have also served me well with various bullet weights and brands. I know pulling 700 rounds make you cringe.......heck..........it makes US cringe too because most of us have had to bite the bullet and pull boxes of rounds too........I had to pull 500 rounds of '06 for my Garand years ago because I couldn't get W788 to light with CCI200's. I'm glad I did - no more extraction problems or 'click-bags' in the colder weather - I went to CCI34's and IMR4895 and problem solved - should have done that to begin with. I shot the W788 in a 5.56 and all was right with the world again.
My next suggestion is that you get away from rem primers and go to CCI34's if you can. The rem primers have a fairly soft cup (not as soft as federal, but soft enough) and some day you might get greeted with a slam fire or out of battery detonation - either can/will ruin your day. Zediker has more on this plus pics. Pat's Reloading still has these listed for sale and so does Bruno's..........yes, I know primers are wicked expensive right now, but it's worth the investment in safety if you can get your hands on a couple thou. Remember to drop you loads down a 1/2 grain when you switch, as 34's are considered by CCI to be magnum strength. I have used CCI200's in a pinch and it worked out ok - there were no noticeable differences in accuracy after I got the load worked up.
2650fps with 150's should be your top-end velocity IMO. It won't slap your bolt around, beat up the weapon and some day you'll be able to hand it down to the grand-kids. 2600fps with SMK 168's, 2550 with SMK 175's. Your M1A should shoot like a dream at these velocities.
GET A CASE GAUGE. period. Don't load for M1A (or anything else for that matter) without one. Zediker goes into excruciating detail about this and this section is of utmost importance for all the reasons other gents in this thread and Zediker make clear. Measure every single case before you load it, you'll be glad you did. Make sure your die is set up right and you are bumping back that shoulder - that's a big deal - I have 4 M1A's and they are all chambered only 1/2 to one thou over SAMMI spec. Every one I know that has an M1A - standard, loaded, SM or surplus - all of these rifles are never over one thou SAMMI headspaced. The case headspace has to be right - this is one of the most critical dimensions to pay attention to with an M1A.
You have to be very certain that you don't jam your loads into the lands of an M1A. Pressure spikes WILL ensue and you are rolling the dice on case separations, extraction problems, cracked bolts, etc. If you have the rounds that you tried to chamber but couldn't, check them for land marks and see if you are loading your rounds too long. Freebore measurement is no easy task with the M1A - don't go over the 2.800 max for 150fmj's and they'll be right as rain. It is common to find M1A's with shallow throats - they DO NOT like long brass - 2.010 is pushing your luck actually........if you can get them back to a spec. 2.000 that would be ideal. You case gauge (or micrometer) will tell the tale - if it's long, trim it or don't load it.
Get a taper crimp die (RCBS makes one especially for 7.62 service round loads) and MILDLY crimp your bullets - cannelure or not. You won't run the risk of bullet set-back during cycling and you won't have to dink around trying to find that perfect/safe neck tension......it's the safest way for you to go for now........when you get down the road and more confident, a set of neck sizing collets and die might be in your future.
Get a Hornady reloading book - it has loads for 308 Service Rifle - namely the M1A and Garand 308. One of the best $20 you'll ever spend.
I small base size my M1A brass because I'm only going to get 4 reloads max out if them anyway (I use LC too).....and it does add a level of reliability that I prefer. I used a standard 308 die set for years and that worked fine too, until I bought the RCBS 7.62 set years ago - it comes with a SB die. I never looked back. If you think you are going to get more than 5 reloads out of your brass you are kidding yourself - and asking for trouble. The M1A is a brass-beater and I retire my brass at 4 rounds out. No - I don't own an annealer.
Sort your brass by when you bought it and when you shoot it. If it was all one-shot when you bought it fine........but keep the 1-shot, 2-shot, etc in separate batches so when......and it will happen eventually......you start to see signs that those batches are giving up the ghost you can cull the whole lot before you have to dig a case out of your weapon. It's not worth loading a batch.......or parts of a batch of brass 'one more time' and having to extract a case from a chamber. It's not as easy as the extractor instructions make it look.........it sucks actually......and you stand a chance of gauging the heck out of your rifle in the process. Retire the brass when the brass tells you it's time.......and that time is usually at 4 loadings.
My recipes (match included) for the M1A are as follows:
41.0gr IMR4895, Hornady 150fmj, LC brass @ 2.000,CCI34's, COAL at 2.800, crimped at cannelure - 2644fps ave.
41.0gr IMR4895, 168SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .020 off the lands, 2597fps ave
39.0gr RL15, 175SMK, LC brass @ 2.000, CCI34's, .015 off the lands, 2550fps ave.
42.0gr Varget, 168Amax, LC brass (1x) @2.000, CCI34's, COAL at 2.790, mild crimp - 2680fps ave (HOG HUNTING LOAD)
Watch for pressure signs.......not all gas guns are created equal. Pancake-flattened primers with a gas gun is usually not a good thing. Like the other guys said - make sure your primers are completely seated .002 below the base.
Good luck and be safe. Enjoy that M1A!!!!
All the best,
S
An M1a1 is a bolt rifle, correct?
Not like a Garand M1 has an a1 designation that I recall from reading Hatcher On The Garand...
There are some heat treat issues with Springfield bolt rifles. I don't own one; never have, and don't want one. If you got a good one in this heat treat dept, might contact your bullet supplier of choice and ask them what they think about Retumbo and your gun...
If for some reason you are referencing a Garand actioned M1 or M14/M1a; STOP!
These rifles are designed for pressure dwell curve of IMR 4895/4064 maybe 3031, and Varget, RL15 and other medium burn powders. Might contact Fulton Armory or get on their warrifles.com forum and ask there.
Here is another reason why no semi-auto gunmaker warrants their product with handloads; Too Many Idiots making ammunition.
Not like a Garand M1 has an a1 designation that I recall from reading Hatcher On The Garand...
There are some heat treat issues with Springfield bolt rifles. I don't own one; never have, and don't want one. If you got a good one in this heat treat dept, might contact your bullet supplier of choice and ask them what they think about Retumbo and your gun...
If for some reason you are referencing a Garand actioned M1 or M14/M1a; STOP!
These rifles are designed for pressure dwell curve of IMR 4895/4064 maybe 3031, and Varget, RL15 and other medium burn powders. Might contact Fulton Armory or get on their warrifles.com forum and ask there.
Here is another reason why no semi-auto gunmaker warrants their product with handloads; Too Many Idiots making ammunition.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
hogan said:
NO, the M1A
(I wrote what he wrote in the first line and wasn't thinking, but joshb you are right, M1A1 is the 30 carbine, just didn't click that someone might be talking about the carbine, was reading M1A the whole time )
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