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Lug Surface Galling...?

Nodak7mm

Team Lefse
Wondering at what point is the lug surfaces, bolt and action are "galled" to the point its detrimental to the action and accuracty/performance?

What I am trying to wrap my head around is the fact that galling takes place whether we can see it or not. We do our best to prevent it with lubrication, but it is a result of two surfaces contacting.

So... When do we take action to clean it up? catch it with a nail, see evidence of smearing, feel?? Dunno. I have seen examples of galling where the bonehead never heard of greasing the lugs and just kept cranking on it. Me, sometimes we get a tighter case than desired, but in the middle of a match and get got up and force it home.

So, anyone got pix to show normal/acceptable galling/wear?

Curious

Rod
 
I've galled 2 rifle bolts in my shooting career. Both times i didn't have enough lube and I was neck sizing only. Ever since I have bumped the shoulder back a few thousands. Luckily for me I do my own rifle work. Nothing bothers me more than see deep grooves in my lugs.
 
Thanks guys for your contribution to this thread, I think it is a good subject to discuss.. ;)

It's one thing for us to do a good visual insp under a good light, my prob is I tend to look with a 5 or 10x glass, then if I see somthing, I grab my 20x. Cripes when do I stop? ::)

I think Lawrence hit on a good point I should take to heart: "Observing the bolt lugs under good light shows that the galling has not progressed." So basically if it dont look galled with a std visual inspection, it should be good to go..

Sound good?

Rod
 
Lawrence,

Thanks for the pix, good illustration. Now that I have seen before on a remmy of mine and I did the "polish" with progressively finer compounds and it cleaned up well and shot without any issue. But if I was to see that on one of my bats, I would be bumming, not so much cause it happened, but because I caused it. Kinda protective of my stuff. On the other hand at times, conditions dictate I shoot hard & fast.

I tried taking pix of what I have on one of my bolts and I cant get the focus/resoution/lighting good enough. But if I was to compare mine to that. Looking at the top of the lug in your pic, at the 12:00 position where it is shiny, thats kinda what one of mine look like. I wonder if I should take action to clean that up or just keep greasing it and keep on shooting it? Dunno, it aint broke so I am not inclined to fix.. But dont want to further harm the surfaces...

Rod
 
Galling occurs when two metals that have very similar hardness come into contact under motion, most of the time we think about it as the same metals but focus on the hardness. A number of action makers like Stiller does stainless steel receiver and chrome moly bolts and guess what no galling, by design.

So to eliminate galling you to have the receiver and bolt be of different hardness, either different materials or treating one different from the other. The Defiance I finished early this summer has a stainless receiver and bolt, before buying it I asked about Melonite treating the bolt and they said that was fine. This winter I will strip the bolt and send it off for melonite treatment and then the difference in hardness between the receiver and bolt will be more than enough to eliminate galling.
 
Great info Wade.

Now is this melonite treatment something that we could do with other custom actions or would it be best to contact the action mfg to get their input?

Rod
 
Rod,
Some custom actions already have their bolts treated in some way. Check with manufacture first.
I think this is true:
Stiller are nitrided.
Surgeon are nitrided
Kelbly is chrome,
Bat is bare
Remington is bare - under the coating.
Savage - unk
Lawton bare
Nisaka bare
Shilen DGA - old - bare but hardened
Hall - different materials
I could be wrong on all these.
You still have to use lube - two flat surfaces don't like being rubbed together.
 
Kings X,

Thats just good info to have, thanks for posting.

No, I know there will no way to get away from using lube, just not reality. But if there is a process or coating that will reduce the potential, that interests me. But I wonder what the Mfg says about these surface treatments. If it will enhance the performance/prolong the life of my action, why does not a mfg like Bruce Thom offer it or incorporate it. Or is the position taken, with proper use, lube and care, galling should not occur?

Again, good info on this discussion, thanks..

Rod
 
Contact the manufactures before trying the melonite on their actions or bolts.

One potential option for the Savages shooters is to get Kiff's new machined Savage bolt head, for comp shooters i would recommend this over the cast one on the stock Savage. It is possible (probable) that Kiff uses a different steel on his bolt head then the Savage receiver, if not he is probably able to tell you about whether they can be melonited.

Given the barrel nut headspacing method on the Savages puttting a new bolt head would not require a 'smith as long as you understood you had to at least check the headspace before firing.


wade
 
Just consider minor galling as a grease groove. ;D Hate to see it, but you might as well make the best of it. :o

Regards, Paul

www.boltfluting.com
 
LawrenceHanson said:
This is particularly important with the Savage bolt design where the bolt grease is swipped off the lugs.


LE Hanson

On our Savages we relocate the spring washer between the baffle and lugs so it doesn't wipe the grease off. Its only purpose is to keep some tension on the bolthead retaining pin, so it matters little if it pushes against the baffle which pushes against the bolthead or the bolthead itself.

And it goes without saying cleaning the lug abutments and recesses on a regular bases will go a long way to prevent galling, Savage or otherwise. It should be part of your cleaning regiment.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tech-tip-clean-your-chamber-and-lug-recesses/

As far as grease is concerned, a light coat of a commercial or lithium grease will suffice. Just wet the lug surfaces, you don't need to glob it on.


Bill
 
Gaulding like show in the picture above was caused by trash (usually blown primers) getting between the two lug surfaces and lack of lubrication. To clean up both surfaced may require enough surface material to be removed that head spacing and primary extraction may also require adjusted.
The Savage factory bolt heads are made over seas and the QC is minimal. PT&G are now making precision ground heat treated 4140 bolt heads for about $50.00. They are a good investment.

PT&G will be offering complete upgraded bolts in the near future.

Nat Lambeth
 
Rod,
Treating the bolts add cost and time to the manufacture. And most operations are done by an outside source. Stiller once had the heat treater LOSSE a big (like 150 or 250) shipment of bolts. I still don't think he has recovered from that time delaying set back. I have a couple actions on order since 2010 from him.
Another story:
I had one action that galled every third cycle. I would polish it back smooth - third stroke - gall. Did this about 6 times before I sent it back.
I got a bill for $140 to correct the problem. The manufacture blamed it on customer not sizing brass. Told him that I had not shipped it to customer yet. So then he blames it on me test fitting with tight headspace gauge fit.
I have been building target rifle for over 35 years. I do about 50 barrels a year. Never had this happen before.
His actions are same steel/same hardness types. Great actions but keep the grease tube close.
Richard King
King's Armory
 
Hi Rod,

As you well know, I have only one action. A BAT Model M with over 50,000 rounds thru it. The lugs are spotless because I clean after every relay and match. I never let the bolt crush the case. This will put tons of pressure on the mating surfaces when you close the bolt. I don't care how much or how well you grease the lugs. Full length resizing is always the best way to insure that you will never be crushing the case. That is why I taught you how to feel the headspace during your brass prep. Always check the brass without the fire control mechanism in the bolt. If the bolt closes smoothly with just a small amount of pressure, then you've resized it correctly. If it's a bit harder to close the bolt, bump the shoulder back another one thousandths, until you get the correct feel.

If your lugs do get galled, it's not hard to face them off to a clean surface.
 

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