Lrg or Sml Primer Brass -> Hornady American Gunner 6.5 Creedmoor Ammo 140 Grain HP BT+Primer Questio

[bob332]

Was curious if the Hornady American Gunner 6.5 Creedmoor Ammo 140 Grain HP BT that you can buy in the 200rnd bulk cases is Large or Small primered brass?
Still trying to decide on going a DPMS GEN II in .308 then get a new barrel (understand the issue w/ the barrel extension/bolt being proprietary and have seen the pics to know the difference) or going AR10A size, but in the mean time I can acquire parts that will work with either route I take.

Primer Question - From all I have read, for the CM, the Small primer brass is what one wants. Now, for Primers, when I do start reloading, I will be reloading for a couple 5.56 chambered AR15s, possibly a Grendel (I say possibly because having a 6.5CM kind of makes having a 16" Grendel kind of pointless other than I just need a SA ADJ gas block and I have all the other parts and I like to build unless anybody has any other reason/s to have both a Grendel & CM?), is there anything wrong using CCI #41 Primers in everything since the will all be in semi-auto rifles? Or are Primers like other parts of the reloading cocktail with different powder/barrel/bullet/case combos working differently with different primers? Trying to keep amount of different consumables down to the least amount without sacrificing each rifles potential.
Same goes for powder - any chance of a powder working good in (worst case scenario if I decide to keep the Grendel) .223, 6.5G & 6.5CM?

As always, Thanks in advance for your expertise,
Bob

 

[jepp2]

Was curious if the Hornady American Gunner 6.5 Creedmoor

I think Hornady only offers the 6.5 CM brass in LR primers.

Primers are another variable in load development.

 

[bob332]

I think Hornady only offers the 6.5 CM brass in LR primers.

Primers are another variable in load development.

Thank you for the reply.

To answer a lot of questions, what would you recommend as a "go to" reloading manual (or say top 3?) that have proven themselves over the years to give excellent information year in, year out? That way I will not annoy anybody with questions that are probably answered many times on a daily basis and in the book.

Again, thank you for response,
Bob

 

[Evan]

If you shoot in the cold, then you'll want LR primers.

Honestly it doesn't make any difference. Don't push your pressure that high and you'll see better accuracy and longer case life.

Some folks are finding factory ammo, after shooting, trashes the primer pockets and is not reloadable. I'd consider buying virgin brass and loading it up instead of buying factory ammo to reuse.

 

[jepp2]

"go to" reloading manual (or say top 3?)

Bob, please feel free to ask away. In my opinion, this forum is the best place to get the best advice for reloading. And I have spent time on other forums.

Regarding what reloading manual(s) to get. There is excellent load data available on-line now, but the manual cover many of the nuances of loading that the online load data leaves out. As much as possible, I try to get the manuals that cover the bullets I use most often. But truth be told, I have quite a collection of manuals from as far back as the 60's.

My top 3: the Sierra 6'th just released, Lyman 50'th, and Nosler 8.

For on-line data, the Hodgdon site is very complete: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
Nosler is also very good: https://load-data.nosler.com/
And some of the Sierra data is available in pdf's. I attached the file for the 6.5 CM

Trying to keep amount of different consumables down to the least amount without sacrificing each rifles potential.

I think you have to pick one, because it you can't have both (in my experience). So if I have to add a new powder or bullet, so be it. I just added the 6mm CM to my loading group. And in addition to dies and brass, now I am using bullets and powder I didn't use in my 6mm Rem. Different twist rate, new powders out, new goals I had to achieve with the caliber.

But I could spend money on more expensive habits that I get less enjoyment out of. So it is $ and time well spent in my case.

 

[ToddKS]

Bob,

For what you are trying to do I would recommend the Rem 7 1/2 as an all around primer. I have had very good luck with this primer, especially in the .223 AR realm.

I would recommend buying new condition small primer brass for your 6.5 Creedmoor. Starline would be my choice if I were feeding an AR10 platform.

 

[bob332]

Thank you again for the information and perspective. As far as shooting in the cold, I live and shoot in the PHX, AZ vicinity with occasional trips up North but even then, I don't see me shooting at anything below freezing with a more realistic temp being in the mid 40s down here in the valley, even then mid 40s would be pushing it and for information sake, the warmest I would be shooting would be in the lower 100s, probably 105F or so max.

Appreciate the attached file and since the 6.5CM is going to have the nicest barrel and highest capability, that will be the one that gets the most attention. I am thinking the others will get reloaded to offset the price of ammo and justify the equipment $ plus just reloading the other calibers will give me a better overall understanding and I can fine tune my method with the emphasis being on the 6.5CM (does this make sense?).

So for the 6.5CM after the rifle is broken (as a complete rifle being broken in, not barrel but everything) I am thinking to use the Hornady American Gunner due to its decent costs and I feel breaking in a rifle with Wolf would probably not be the best idea if the barrel I am looking at alone is in the $4-600 range, then buying Lapua brass for the 6.5CM only good investment? Reason i am asking is because I have read that the Lapua brass is reloadable many more times than other, quality brass and that it ends up costing pretty close to the same as cheaper brass because of the amounts of reloads you can get out of it. If I am way off, please let me know as I would rather buy once, cry once if necessary, but if I could acquire another brand brass that is 1/3 the cost and get just about the same amount of reloads per unit, please let me know, in fact if anything I am saying doesn't make sense, just let me know as I would rather be stopped here at the thinking stage than after the fact. I will probably sell the Grendel barre, bolt mags and a small amount of ammo I had already purchased for it because the ammo price between it and the CM are pretty close, then when I did more looking into the DPMS GEN II, there really is not a large size or weight difference, thus the reason I even started to look at the CM, plus while I have not decided on barrel length yet (can't make up my mind between 18-24"), the CM will be able to everything the Grendel can and a whole lot more and it just started, at least for me, to make more sense.

Greatly appreciate the info, and I have found this forum to be very noob friendly, which is nice considering the topic .
Bob (off to read that .PDF )

 

[bob332]

@ToddKS - appreciate the info, you must have responded while I was responding.
The reason I brought up the CCI #41 was being everything I will be doing will be AR based, I want to mitigate to the best of my ability of a slam fire.
These Rem 7 ½ will do ok in the larger 6.5CM too?
Thanks,
Bob

 

[jepp2]

Hornady American Gunner 6.5 Creedmoor Ammo 140 Grain HP BT

Price check showed it runs $0.95 per round here: https://www.luckygunner.com/6-5-creedmoor-140-grain-bthp-hornady-american-gunner-200-rounds

Cost to reload new brass: Starline $0.55 each and you can pick SR primed: https://www.brownells.com/reloading...oor-small-primer-pocket-brass-prod109160.aspx
Primers: $0.04 each
Powder: assume 45 gr. $30 per lb. $0.20 each
Bullets: Berger $0.44 each

Total $1.23 each and you have the primer sized brass you want, better quality brass, and loads that can better suit your rifle. I would pick loading my own, but I enjoy reloading. And factor in barrel life cost of $0.20 per shot ($400/2000 rounds).

I don't see Lapua or Peterson lasting longer than Starline. I do feel the quality of either is higher than Starline (mostly in more uniform case neck thickness). But I shoot all 3 and just don't see that much difference. But folks have lots of opinions on this, it is only mine.

 

[bob332]

Price check showed it runs $0.95 per round here: https://www.luckygunner.com/6-5-creedmoor-140-grain-bthp-hornady-american-gunner-200-rounds

Cost to reload new brass: Starline $0.55 each and you can pick SR primed: https://www.brownells.com/reloading...oor-small-primer-pocket-brass-prod109160.aspx
Primers: $0.04 each
Powder: assume 45 gr. $30 per lb. $0.20 each
Bullets: Berger $0.44 each

Total $1.23 each and you have the primer sized brass you want, better quality brass, and loads that can better suit your rifle. I would pick loading my own, but I enjoy reloading. And factor in barrel life cost of $0.20 per shot ($400/2000 rounds).

I don't see Lapua or Peterson lasting longer than Starline. I do feel the quality of either is higher than Starline (mostly in more uniform case neck thickness). But I shoot all 3 and just don't see that much difference. But folks have lots of opinions on this, it is only mine.

Thank you for the information. I can't find the Hornady link I was getting a price for ATM, but I could have sworn it was ~$153, but that really doesn't matter as you end up with better components your way is the better way to go IMHO.
My only issue is being a noob to reloading, I like to use factory ammo on a brand new build, in case something is acting weird, at least that way I can take myself out of the equation for making an error in ammo production.
I do like the prices of the Starline brass over the Lapua. Reason I had brought it up was I had read somewhere that getting 10-15 reloads from Lapua brass in the 6.5CM was achievable. I honestly do not know if this is possible or just somebody talking out the wrong end of their body, well I personally do not know but your experience, that does not sound like the case. FWIW, shooting wise, I will be the weak link just because I haven't shot a lot in the past few years and the medical problems. Also, just to let you know, I have no desire to be pushing their limits, w/ a 6.5CM I am supersonic past all the ranges I have decently easy access to, I think even if I were to even go a 16" barrel.
Very much appreciate your input, already giving good insight and saving $$ at the same time,
Bob

 

[jepp2]

Reason I had brought it up was I had read somewhere that getting 10-15 reloads from Lapua brass in the 6.5CM was achievable.

Depending upon how to deal with it (how hot your loads are, how much do you set back the shoulder, how much work do you put into the case neck, etc.) you would be higher or lower with Starline.

I ran a case life test a couple of years ago. Kept reading about folks tossing their brass fired in AR15's after 4 reloads. So I picked up some once fired LC range brass, and started the test. I annealed case necks every 5 firings. And yes the gas guns are harder on the brass than bolt guns. I also wanted to see how the brass would fail (I kind of assumed it would be incipient case head separations since I was setting shoulder back 0.003" each cycle). I got up to 37 reloads on the brass. A couple developed minor cracks at the shoulder/body junction, but all the rest failed due to minor cracks developing in the case neck. The cause was I had just rebarreled the AR I was shooting these in, and the barrel extension was putting minor "gouges" in the case neck during ejection. Eventually this caused enough thinning the crack went through the neck. Now I blunt these sharp points on the barrel extension lugs prior to installing. No more minor gouges occur. This is what I am talking about.

 

[bob332]

Depending upon how to deal with it (how hot your loads are, how much do you set back the shoulder, how much work do you put into the case neck, etc.) you would be higher or lower with Starline.

I ran a case life test a couple of years ago. Kept reading about folks tossing their brass fired in AR15's after 4 reloads. So I picked up some once fired LC range brass, and started the test. I annealed case necks every 5 firings. And yes the gas guns are harder on the brass than bolt guns. I also wanted to see how the brass would fail (I kind of assumed it would be incipient case head separations since I was setting shoulder back 0.003" each cycle). I got up to 37 reloads on the brass. A couple developed minor cracks at the shoulder/body junction, but all the rest failed due to minor cracks developing in the case neck. The cause was I had just rebarreled the AR I was shooting these in, and the barrel extension was putting minor "gouges" in the case neck during ejection. Eventually this caused enough thinning the crack went through the neck. Now I blunt these sharp points on the barrel extension lugs prior to installing. No more minor gouges occur. This is what I am talking about.

View attachment 1122412

That is some interesting data. Now was 37 the mean or more the exception in your batch? I figure for my 5.56 or .223 Wylde chambered ARs, I would pick up a Federal LC 420rnd case/ammo can (I don't think it is a case, but you know what I mean) and since I shoot for relaxation I do not plan on pushing the envelope in any aspect. I have picked up my brass the times I have gone and will probably grab another 1 or 2 420rnd cases of the 55grn LC stuff in the near future as I have 2 rifles I need to finish up, and since summer is coming to an end, I need to get moving on these 2 rifles along with the 6.5CM (so I need to finalize on a barrel length quickly and sell those 6.5G items).
You bring up a question - annealing - is there a "Dummies guide to Annealing" floating somewhere out there online, or a book, because if I am going to do it, I want learn the correct way and do it correctly, or do places like ArmOrAlly (not necessarily them, but somebody with a good reputation to deprime, clean size, etc for a decent price and more importantly, do places like that do it correctly? This of utmost importance to me.
Since I am just getting into reloading, would you recommend a single stage press? I have looked at the progressive types from Dillon (plus they are ~5MI from were I live give or take a mile so figured customer service wouldn't be a problem as I can just go up and see them) but i am not sure having 4 or 5 things going on at the same time are the best for somebody trying to learn the basics while at the same time create good, safe methods with safety being if utmost importance because, to be honest, if something did go wrong, more than likely I am not finding out till I am shooting on the range. I really don't want to find out that way - that I made an error considering this error is going to show itself less than 6" from my face. I am not trying to set any speed records for reloading or the load itself, I just want to learn it once and learn it correctly and produce quality, repeatable ammo that has a nice cost to me for it.
If there is any thought you have about what I am saying, or if anybody else does, please, by all means let me know your thoughts, I can always get the faster progressive preses later unless you feel that is the best way now.
Looking forward to your feedback,
Bob

 

[ToddKS]

@ToddKS - appreciate the info, you must have responded while I was responding.
The reason I brought up the CCI #41 was being everything I will be doing will be AR based, I want to mitigate to the best of my ability of a slam fire.
These Rem 7 ½ will do ok in the larger 6.5CM too?
Thanks,
Bob

Bob,

The Remington 7 1/2 will be fine in the 6.5CM. I have friends using them in both 6 and 6.5CM with good results. Primer cup thickness on the Rem 7 1/2 is identical to the CCI #41 per my understanding.

 

[jepp2]

Now was 37 the mean or more the exception in your batch?

The least # of firings prior to failure was 24, the most 37. I didn't calculate a mean. They all surprised me at longevity.

I want learn the correct way and do it correctly,

If you ask 10 people on this forum the best way to anneal, you will probably get at least 12 different opinions. About like asking about new barrel break-in, best way to clean a rifle bore, etc. Lots of strong opinions and generally quite varied. I will let others share their opinions, but if you want to know mine, PM me. I would be glad to share.

would you recommend a single stage press?

Well, I have 2 Dillon 550's, Forster Co-Axial, and Redding Big Boss. And a RCBC RockChucker from the 60's I started with sitting in a box currently. I'm probably unusual in that I shoot up to 12K centerfire rifle rounds per year, and don't load any of them on the Dillons. I would find it hard to imagine a scenario where I wouldn't use a single stage press some if I moved everything to my progressives. So starting with a single stage press isn't a bad way to start.

Keep in mind on the Dillon (and I would probably suggest going with the 650/750 vs the 550) on the 550 you can always use them basically as a single stage until you get really comfortable with what you are doing since you do the indexing. Not an option of the 650/750 press.

There a lot of really good single stage presses out there. My RockChucker had a lot of use on it (still works perfectly), but I got the itch to use the Big Boss, and I slightly preferred the rotation of the O-ring frame. Makes putting a cartridge and removing a little more ergonomically correct for me. And I wind up doing a lot of sizing. And I mainly the Forster for seating bullets. But it works really good for depriming and containing all the priming debris. I just hand deprime everything with a Harvey. I can feel how the primer comes out of the pocket, and I can cull cases that are getting enlarge primer pockets.

if something did go wrong, more than likely I am not finding out till I am shooting on the range

I just approach reloading from the viewpoint that there are certain mistakes that I absolutely cannot make. So I make sure that I completely avoid them. Wrong powder use as an example. I only have 1 powder container open at a time, and I always return any unused powder to the container prior to ending my reloading session. Always. I never leave powder in anything overnight, other than the original container.

If you pay attention to details, I consider reloading a very safe activity. And when you do see some of the dramatic failures out there, the design did very well to containing the huge pressures we are dealing with. But let me tell you, those presses have quite a mechanical advantage!! Not my finger.

 

[Zero333]

AR-10 definitely Large Primers.
I don't know much about the dpms 308 firing pin to give a informed opinion.

Hodgdon
Nosler
Speer
Vihtavuori
Alliant.....
All have online data.

For gas guns I use once fired brass just like you're planning. Brass takes a lil beating, so expensive brass is a waste of money in my opinion.

You don't need milspec primers in the AR-10. I use cci-200 / cci-250 and am very happy. CCI primers have a harder cup than most others so they're ideal for gas guns.
But you should be able to use every brand of primer with out worry.
I have a load for my M1A with Sellier & Bellot primers, and those feel fairly soft.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I do not like small primers with anything above 35grs of powder or so. The creedmoor needs a large primer. Tubb figured this out with his 6xc and i figured it out around the same time lapua came out with the palma brass since i make most of my cases from 308 brass

 

[Evan]

Since you're in Phoenix, why don't you just put up a request thread for someone local to help get you going and mentor you. There are a lot of gadgets you don't need, and a lot of extra steps people take that you don't need. Annealing is one of them, until you get your reloading legs under you. You can get a dozen or more good firings out of a case without annealing, and if you keep your brass sorted by number of firings, there is arguably little accuracy benefit to annealing them. Start simple, and layer in more steps as you get comfortable and understand what those additional steps are doing for you.

 

[bob332]

Thanks all for the suggestions, I am doing my best to taking everything into account. I have thought about what @Evan had brought up regarding looking for a reloading mentor, which is something I feel would be good to do, just IMHO, I have some other things to do before I am at the reloading point, one is figuring out if small rifle primers (assuming magnum) are adequate for the amount of powder I will be using in 6.5CM. Just from what I have read over a decent amount of time, the small rifle primered brass was the "go to" 6.5CM. Since I had done a lot of research into the Grendel to the point of acquiring all parts necessary with the exception of a SA Adj gas block, maybe I am mixing the data up in my head, but I could have sworn that Lapua (not that I would buy it now after everybody's teachings today) but I thought they used Small Rifle Primers with an even smaller "flash hole" (forgive my ignorance if that is not the correct nomenclature) than conventional Small Rifle Primered brass for the 6.5CM, I thought they used it in their 6.5x47 round. After much thought, I am wanting to sell the Grendel items as the 6.5CM will do everything better than a Grendel, and using the DPMS GEN II platform I am not really gaining much in terms of size/weight compared to the Grendel. I have a couple friends & family members who are 07FFLs and I need to see what they can get me a DPMS GEN II .308 for (at their dealer cost) since I have a lot of AR15 stuff.
That is why I am hoping that 6.5CM will be ok with Small Rifle Magnum Primers, all in an order to keep cross pollination as high as possible.
@jepp2 - is there any way you could get me a .PDF with the load data for .223 like you did with the 6.5CM, that way I can look at what powders cross pollinate between the 2 and then run those by the group? Again, in an effort for keeping items to a minimum, of course unless there is just a complete "non pollination" situation.

Appreciate all the input,
Bob

 

[lb-ft]

Hornady American Gunner 140 HPBT is with certainty LR primed. The stuff shoots great.

You may wish to check out Alpha brass, too. US made and of the highest quality to boot.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Grendel brass from starline comes with small primers and large flash holes. I think this is where youre getting confused. Youll never know the difference in any of the different brands running them thru an AR rifle just go shoot and dont worry about the small stuff you read about