I would appreciate all the senior shooters (50yrs plus) in competitions feed back on this matter... Lets say you have two guns to choose from.. 1. 6mm moving 105gr at 3,100fps, light recoiling... 2. 6.5mm moving 140gr at 3,000 fps, heavier recoiling... If you play the numbers over at Applied Ballistics you will see the greater hit percentage given to the 6.5mm.. So the question is given the slight improvement in hit percentage in all conditions which one would you still choose knowing you could have that advantage over the 6mm... How much does light recoiling aid you in hitting the target??? In this circumstance shooting will be from multiple positions.... Thank You
"Low Recoil vs. Higher Recoil "Plus" Superior BC/Velocity
- Thread starter SHootSTraight22
- Start date
I have been shooting the M14 in competition since they dug the river. I have experience in instructing and coaching new shooters. The ball and dummy training exercise is revealing. I can tell you one thing for sure recoil is not conducive to marksmanship. Our subconscious tries to protect us from noise and recoil because it is perceived as a threat. So we are constantly having to overcome a natural involuntary reaction of our subconscious to noise and recoil. Go with the low recoil and learn to read the wind.
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
Quit on the numbers game and go with what shoots. I shoot both and the rifle that just pops during firing with little recoil is so much nicer to shoot. flinchitis can take a half minute gun to three minutes without really trying. I have a variety of rifles and the lighter recoiling ones are the easiest, funnest, and usually most accurate, even at lower velocities. The ability to relax and fire goes along way against any thing you gain with higher velocities and larger bullets, if they shoot well.
Accuracy will normally beat BC. Not one shooter in 1000 deal with Recoil . T-REX & Albany mountain has the reason. The reason the 6mm have taken off is good BC low recoil and very accurate. I hate recoil so much I use a 24 LB Dasher with a Brake. The gun shoots better then I do. I still flinch every so often.
We had a saying when shooting archery. The only difference between a slow arrow and a fast arrow is one is a slow miss the other is a fast miss.
My answer Accuracy with low recoil. Larry
We had a saying when shooting archery. The only difference between a slow arrow and a fast arrow is one is a slow miss the other is a fast miss.
My answer Accuracy with low recoil. Larry
To put this in another perspective, we will introduce a suppressor. If you never shot any weapon with one this will be a little harder for you. All of us I'm betting has shot a 22 pistol and even though you should. You get used to that sound but a mild recoil, so it's the sound that makes you pull off target. Screw on a suppressor and you are amazed! No noise, no recoil and you hit what you were aiming at. The same theory applies with big bore rifles except you have added the recoil. Come to the Nationals and walk the line and see how many 338 L Mags you find. Anybody that says recoil doesn't bother them has either on shot a couple of rounds and trys to act like a man or he's a liar. I have a Freedom Arms 454 Casull with a 10 1/2" bbl and it's pro-ported. The first guy to open his mouth and say those magic words and I break out that pistol. It holds 5 rounds and very few shoot more the 2.
Lloyd
Lloyd
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Shoot what works for you. If recoil is a distraction, then avoid it.
After a few years of shooting FTR I hardly notice recoil. I think I am concentrating so hard on getting the fundamentals correct that I don't notice it anymore. My head is running down the checklist quickly and intensely, because I have finally learned to recognize mistakes as they are about to happen. No time to think about recoil, because I need to break the shot before conditions change. That's what it feels like at least.
I am mentally fatigued after a match.
After a few years of shooting FTR I hardly notice recoil. I think I am concentrating so hard on getting the fundamentals correct that I don't notice it anymore. My head is running down the checklist quickly and intensely, because I have finally learned to recognize mistakes as they are about to happen. No time to think about recoil, because I need to break the shot before conditions change. That's what it feels like at least.
I am mentally fatigued after a match.
I think it depends on what you want to do! Are you talking about a hunting rifle and only taking 1-2 shots? Competition 3-600 yds (midrange)? Long range at 8-1K. For competition shooting I'd go with the 6mm out to 600yds. Yeah-yeah I know a lot of shooters also use them out to 1K but at ranges past this I'd go with the 6.5. When the wind kicks up nothing beats bullet weight and BC.
I have been debating this quite a bit lately.
The 7mm shoots well (I shoot a 284 Shehane), but in a no wind condition or light wind condition, the advantage it has over a softer shooting 6.5 or 6mm is almost negligible from what I can see. At 600 yards, they are near impossible to beat with the 7mm. They just shoot too well and need less gun handling than the 7mm.
At 1000 yards with a 5MPH wind, the differences are a bit more noticeable, with the 7mm having maybe 5+ inches on the 6mm, but against a 6.5 going say 2950, it could be only a 1.5-3 inch (based on what speed you're shooting the 7mm) advantage @ 5 MPH...that is not that much. I find myself wondering if the ballistic advantage of the 7mm is offset by the recoil and gun handling needed to shoot the 7mm. And, if the recoil and gun handling play a bigger part in shooter induced vertical, then it almost seems like the 6.5 or 6mm are better suited for the task.
So, that being said, I have been thinking about a 6.5 creedmoor, 260AI or 6.5x55 AI for another cartridge. I think this, with a 140gr hybrid going about 2900-2950 would still have a ballistic "advantage" over the 6mm with a tad more recoil, and I would not be giving much up to the 7mm IF I can manage the rifle better by shooting a lighter recoiling cartridge.
The 7mm shoots well (I shoot a 284 Shehane), but in a no wind condition or light wind condition, the advantage it has over a softer shooting 6.5 or 6mm is almost negligible from what I can see. At 600 yards, they are near impossible to beat with the 7mm. They just shoot too well and need less gun handling than the 7mm.
At 1000 yards with a 5MPH wind, the differences are a bit more noticeable, with the 7mm having maybe 5+ inches on the 6mm, but against a 6.5 going say 2950, it could be only a 1.5-3 inch (based on what speed you're shooting the 7mm) advantage @ 5 MPH...that is not that much. I find myself wondering if the ballistic advantage of the 7mm is offset by the recoil and gun handling needed to shoot the 7mm. And, if the recoil and gun handling play a bigger part in shooter induced vertical, then it almost seems like the 6.5 or 6mm are better suited for the task.
So, that being said, I have been thinking about a 6.5 creedmoor, 260AI or 6.5x55 AI for another cartridge. I think this, with a 140gr hybrid going about 2900-2950 would still have a ballistic "advantage" over the 6mm with a tad more recoil, and I would not be giving much up to the 7mm IF I can manage the rifle better by shooting a lighter recoiling cartridge.
Hog, I have that same pistol. Bob Baker, who owned Freedom Arms talked me into letting him build me one years ago when I was doing a lot of Handgun hunting using RPM Pistols, who were sponsoring me in competition shooting. Mine only has a 5-3/8" barrel and 1 port instead of 2 because of the short barrel. I also had him put Pachmeyer grips on it. He told me I wouldn't like it in that configuration because of the huge recoil. But even with 300G bullets, its not that bad. You get used to it pretty quickly. I've shot well over 100 rounds out of it. I do usually wear a shooting glove if I plan to shoot more than 1 cylinder full at a time though. Its surprising accurate for such a short barrel and large caliber.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
I have/had both calibers you mentioned. The 6BR was very accurate on my normal 300yd range but it was inferior to the 6.5x47 at long range. Shooting 123gr at 3150fps the 6.5 recoil was no different. Accuracy comparisons will vary for sure, but to me the recoil difference is not significant for the calibers I've had.
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Ledd, I think the OP means the seniors as in those 50 years of age and not experience. Depending on your profession, those shoulder parts can get worn out. I know my old one can't take the beating it used to. :'(Ledd Slinger said:SHootSTraight22 said:
Thats funny you think people with lesser experience dont have enough knowledge to address such an elementary subject.
I guess most of the current BR world record holders cant pipe in on this one because they dont have more than 50 years of competition shooting experience. Entrepreneurs like Brian Litz must be a bafoons as well. :
Get out of your shell...
I'm assuming F-Open or LR BR
I own both as well. 7 and 6. These are a tight chambered .284 Win and 2 6x47 Lapua(s). All have a more than their share of 20 shot cleans to their credit. Some by me some by my wife. Is the 7 as accurate as the 6? Absolutely with the current barrel. Both average .75 - 5 shot groups at 300 yds but what most of these guys are saying is absolutely true - the recoil wears on you. It comes down to what you want to be thinking about while you're shooting. Even if you get a "system" down and think you aren't bothered by recoil chances are you are only fooling yourself. Now I know someone is gonna talk about the occasional clean with over 15 Xs at a thousand using 7s or 30s. Yep it happens. Like these guys have said, it depends on the match. Anyone who thinks that 600 and 1000 aren't different disciplines probably shoots one and not the other very much. If you're gonna shoot 600 all the time then get and learn a 6. If you're going to shoot 1000 you should probably go with the 7 or a 30. (Or, as one poster said, .."learn to read the wind"). If you are going to shoot 600 and 1000 in equal numbers, you may as well throw a couple of shotgun/pistol matches in there as well cause you ain't gonna do any of em very well with any level of consistency. I'm sure there are some shooting savants who's activities refute this but they are few and far between.
Like I heard once at a South La Regional match. "What happend to (shooter's name omitted)?" "He shoots a thousand."
The answer went something like this, "He ain't shooting a thousand." "He got 6'd. by a local boy" (or local girl as my wife is quick to point out) sorry honey.
Choose the gun for the match based on what you can handle. If in a dead wind you can't put 17-20 shots from your 7/30 cal, into an F-Class 300 yard X ring in 20 minutes, drop back to 6 or... maybe learn to reload - which is another subject.
Nowadays, at 600 yards, it's gonna come down to X count
I own both as well. 7 and 6. These are a tight chambered .284 Win and 2 6x47 Lapua(s). All have a more than their share of 20 shot cleans to their credit. Some by me some by my wife. Is the 7 as accurate as the 6? Absolutely with the current barrel. Both average .75 - 5 shot groups at 300 yds but what most of these guys are saying is absolutely true - the recoil wears on you. It comes down to what you want to be thinking about while you're shooting. Even if you get a "system" down and think you aren't bothered by recoil chances are you are only fooling yourself. Now I know someone is gonna talk about the occasional clean with over 15 Xs at a thousand using 7s or 30s. Yep it happens. Like these guys have said, it depends on the match. Anyone who thinks that 600 and 1000 aren't different disciplines probably shoots one and not the other very much. If you're gonna shoot 600 all the time then get and learn a 6. If you're going to shoot 1000 you should probably go with the 7 or a 30. (Or, as one poster said, .."learn to read the wind"). If you are going to shoot 600 and 1000 in equal numbers, you may as well throw a couple of shotgun/pistol matches in there as well cause you ain't gonna do any of em very well with any level of consistency. I'm sure there are some shooting savants who's activities refute this but they are few and far between.
Like I heard once at a South La Regional match. "What happend to (shooter's name omitted)?" "He shoots a thousand."
The answer went something like this, "He ain't shooting a thousand." "He got 6'd. by a local boy" (or local girl as my wife is quick to point out) sorry honey.
Choose the gun for the match based on what you can handle. If in a dead wind you can't put 17-20 shots from your 7/30 cal, into an F-Class 300 yard X ring in 20 minutes, drop back to 6 or... maybe learn to reload - which is another subject.
Nowadays, at 600 yards, it's gonna come down to X count
I hunt and compete locally with the .30-'06. Due to a couple of surgical interventions through my sternum, that's the limit for me, along with the 20ga. I'm knockin' on 70, have made the .260 Rem work for me at LR, and hope to do the same with the .280 Rem.
IMHO, the better approach is to choose the bullet with the right characteristics, then arrange the rifle to shoot it in the most ideal manner. I find that the comparison (for me) is 260/140 vs .30-'06/175, and I have no trouble figuring out which one is favorable.
The key to shooting precisely is frequent and effective practice. Anything that adds complexity, like recoil, is counterproductive to that goal.
Greg
IMHO, the better approach is to choose the bullet with the right characteristics, then arrange the rifle to shoot it in the most ideal manner. I find that the comparison (for me) is 260/140 vs .30-'06/175, and I have no trouble figuring out which one is favorable.
The key to shooting precisely is frequent and effective practice. Anything that adds complexity, like recoil, is counterproductive to that goal.
Greg
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