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Looking to Learn - 219 Donaldson Wasp

257Roberts

I had my eye on an early Winchester bolt action target rifle chambered in this round, and it went higher than I wanted. In hindsight, I probably should have just bit the bullet and bid higher, anyways...cant fix it now.

That said, I've been reading up on this cartridge and I am strongly considering building one. I like the odd & different stuff, well, because I am odd & different too! Would like to do a bolt gun, preferable something for dual purpose competition and varmint hunting. The rimmed cartridge bothers me a little, but its obviously been done before. I have also read where some folks either use 225 Winchester brass, or turn rims, in order to use a standard 0.473" bolt face, with a "semi-rimmed" case design.

I've been thinking about finding a Savage Model 340 in 30-30 and rebarreling, or finding an old 225 Winchester and rebarreling. I've got in mind something like 308 length action, fast twist barrel shooting heavy bullets. Repeater would be cool. Should be a little more horsepower that a 224 Valkyrie if I understand things correctly.

Id be interested in any experience, suggestions, load data, or anything folks want to share about it.
Anybody out there built a fast twist wasp?
 
The Valkyrie case is dimensionally very close to the Wasp but without the rim.

I haven‘nt heard super great things about the Valkyrie, seems most are in AR’s shooting heavy bullets .

I shoot a 14 twist Wasp, 52g bullets. It shoots in the 1’s and 2’s and it has shot several groups in the 0’s.
The Brass is 30 American, ie, Federal small primer 30-30 brass with the rims turned to .473.
 
257Roberts said:
Would this be the book titled "Yours Truly"?
Click to expand...
Indeed it is.

There’s several versions of the Wasp. Originally designed case length was 1.75” but at some point someone (I think Hornady) published the case length as 1.813” and that length now seems to be the new standard. Most load data you’ll find is for the longer version but DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Also keep in mind that it was originally a bench rest cartridge and, as is now with the current BR type chamberings, it was loaded to very high pressures so load data from that era is likely very hot. Again: DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
 
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A 1946 book by Landis,

Twenty-Two Caliber Varmint Rifles​


is an excellent history of the early 22 Varmint cartridges.

He mentions 3031 gave the highest velocities in the Wasp while 4320 gave the smallest groups.

Harvey did load it hot, the story was his Wasp loads penetrated thicker steel plates than the Swift.

I found moderate loads of 4320 shot the best in my gun.

7959D908-8B90-4689-9216-35C40DAB4AAD.jpeg
 
257Roberts.
I had a .219 Wasp Ruger No.3 for several years and now have a No.1 and No.3 in each of the wildcats that I developed from my experience with the .219. The gunsmith that rebarreled my No.3 had a short .219 reamer and the Redding dies that I had bought were for the 1.813 long version. He just ran the reamer in .062 deeper. That makes the rim clearance about .125 deep but is no problem since the case head is much thicker and you headspace off the shoulder. Here is a link to some loads that I worked with back then.
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/219-donaldson-wasp-loads.3754163/post-35893643

I want to see your prairie dog rifles

I like looking at rifles so lets see your favorite prairie dog killer. Lee
forum.accurateshooter.com
I wanted to try for a 1000 yard PD so used a 8" twist Shilen on my last build. The case is my .219DW PDK which is a .219 Wasp with the shoulder moved .125 forward and changed to 35* for a little more powder capacity. Shooting a 75gr A-Max at 3200 I was able to connect at 915 yards on my last trip to Montana in 2013. I've had good results with the 75gr A-Max on coyotes here in Indiana since then. No reason a 8" twist wouldn't work with either version of the .219 Wasp.

Second .204 Wasp-Ruger #3(pics) - Saubier.com

Second .204 Wasp-Ruger #3(pics) Project Guns
www.saubier.com
In this thread I have a picture of .225 WW brass next to a .219 Wasp. If you use .225 brass for the .473 rim the neck of the Wasp will be formed from the shoulder and body of the .225. Might cause some forming problems and you would need to neck turn. I shot a .225WW for several years and its a fine varmint cartridge. I like to post a pic of it when I can, I always thought it looked like a real PD killer and it was.old gun pics4.jpg
 
I had Wasp a few years ago in a single shot custom and it shot very well and easy to load with plenty of 30-30 brass around. Very accurate. Close to the 22-250 and excellent for single shot actions. Great round with a good rifle.
 
@1911nut mentioned the most excellent 1946 book by Landis (https://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Two-C...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1658525935&sr=8-1). Just to add that Landis devoted an entire chapter to the .219 Donaldson Wasp in that book. A few quick excerpts...

"One thing is certain — that the . 219 Zipper Improved cases have given most astonishing results in the way of both accuracy and high velocities for the powder burned . This whole chapter should be of great interest to woodchuck and coyote hunters who are looking for a . 22 wildcat cartridge which shoots nearly as flat as the . 220 Swift , gives much better accuracy , does not give either the erosion or cartridge elongation of the . 220 Swift , uses less powder and costs less to shoot ."

"Now , concluding from these experiments that a case of small body diameter in relation to neck diameter was a step in the wrong direction , Donaldson deemed it advisable to again return to a case of smaller capacity , but with a shorter , fatter body in proportion to the diameter at the neck of the case ."

"Donaldson now felt that he was on the right track . The new case was developing accuracy finer than any he had ever seen , from a . 22 varmint rifle . The entire secret seemed to lie in the very small change in the shape of the case which had been made . The greater body diameter , in relation to the size of the neck , working with a rather abrupt shoulder slope , was now causing every grain of the powder to be fully consumed . The result was that extremely high velocities were being obtained with such small charges of powder that Donaldson could hardly believe the evidence . Checking carefully , by firing into steel plates of different thicknesses , it was apparent that this small capacity case was producing velocities as high as some other . 22 varmint cases loaded with 8.0 to 10.0 grains more of the same powder and utilizing identically the same bullet ."

I highly recommend both the Landis book as well as Donaldson's own "Yours Truly" (sadly, out-of-print, but used copies can still be found).

The November-December 1974 (#36) issue of Rifle Magazine had an article on the .219 family (Zipper, Improved Zipper, and Donaldson Wasp).

The October 1999 (#201) issue of Handloader Magazine also had an article on the .219 Donaldson Wasp. Here is some load data from that article that includes some more modern bullets...

219 Donaldson Wasp.png

And Ken Waters profiled the .219 Donaldson Wasp in his Wildcat Cartridges column in the March-April 1984 (#108) issue of Handloader Magazine.

Cool project. If you go ahead with it, by all means keep us posted!
 
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You guys are dangling a piece of yarn in front of the cat.
Picked up a High Wall a while back for a decent price. It was chambered on a 30-30 wildcat, barrel is some what of a mess.
I have looked at the Wasp way before I ever had the High Wall. I toy with the thoughts of a 20 caliber Wasp, but wish for a good supply of 40-50 grain bullets.
Then I think 225 or 220 swift and go on. Decisions, decisions………
 
JSH said:
You guys are dangling a piece of yarn in front of the cat.
Picked up a High Wall a while back for a decent price. It was chambered on a 30-30 wildcat, barrel is some what of a mess.
I have looked at the Wasp way before I ever had the High Wall. I toy with the thoughts of a 20 caliber Wasp, but wish for a good supply of 40-50 grain bullets.
Then I think 225 or 220 swift and go on. Decisions, decisions………
Click to expand...
I also looked into making a 20 cal out of 219 zipper, wasp, 30 30 cases. after forming a couple of cases and playing around a bit, I decided on making a 20 cal out of dw 360 brass instead. it's based on the vartarg dimensions and it was a better overall size for the Martini action I was using.
 
Have not looked at the Wasp case capacity. I doubt there would be any difference with a 20 of what a 204 Ruger does. Thought about a 20PPC a d was told the case capacity and performance was on par with the 204.

I made up some rimmed 221 brass for a friend one winter years ago. It was a major chore to say the least.
 
JSH said:
Have not looked at the Wasp case capacity. I doubt there would be any difference with a 20 of what a 204 Ruger does. Thought about a 20PPC a d was told the case capacity and performance was on par with the 204.

I made up some rimmed 221 brass for a friend one winter years ago. It was a major chore to say the least.
Click to expand...
what brass did you use to make the rimmed 221?
 
257Roberts said:
I had my eye on an early Winchester bolt action target rifle chambered in this round, and it went higher than I wanted. In hindsight, I probably should have just bit the bullet and bid higher, anyways...cant fix it now.

That said, I've been reading up on this cartridge and I am strongly considering building one. I like the odd & different stuff, well, because I am odd & different too! Would like to do a bolt gun, preferable something for dual purpose competition and varmint hunting. The rimmed cartridge bothers me a little, but its obviously been done before. I have also read where some folks either use 225 Winchester brass, or turn rims, in order to use a standard 0.473" bolt face, with a "semi-rimmed" case design.

I've been thinking about finding a Savage Model 340 in 30-30 and rebarreling, or finding an old 225 Winchester and rebarreling. I've got in mind something like 308 length action, fast twist barrel shooting heavy bullets. Repeater would be cool. Should be a little more horsepower that a 224 Valkyrie if I understand things correctly.

Id be interested in any experience, suggestions, load data, or anything folks want to share about it.
Anybody out there built a fast twist wasp?
Click to expand...
 
I well understand your quest for a Wasp. I've owned and loaded a number of rifles in the last five decades or so and the Wasp is the only true wildcat cartridge that I've owned and still own. One Wasp is built on a Ruger no. 1 with a single set trigger. The other is on a FN 51 Mauser action. Both are the original length and both shoot very well. I'm at the point where my shooting has tapered quite a bit. If you are interested in either of these rifles, send me a PM.
 
JSH,
The pictures that 17VLD posted are of my .204 Wasp Ruger No.1 and No.3. (thank you 17VLD). My PD shooting partner at the time had a .20BR and I wanted to match its performance with a 30-30 case and falling block rifle. 39 and 40gr at 4100fps work great out to 600 plus yards in my experience and probably farther with the right conditions. I already had Redding dies for long version (1.813) .219 Wasp with the neck die converted to use bushings so all I needed was a reamer and some more bushings. I'll post a pic of the reamer print in. The .204 or .219 Wasp are more work and money than a standard cartridge but there is that satisfaction of shooting something that not many others have.
Tried to get reamer print to post earlier, didn't work. At the end of this thread on Saubier there is a pic of my reamer print. Pacific will e-mail you a print from what I've heard.

First .20 cal project - Saubier.com

First .20 cal project Project Guns
www.saubier.com
I just checked the capacity of my .204 Wasp brass. The R-P that I use in the No.1 holds 32.5gr of Varget half way up the neck. The WW that I use in the No.3 holds 31.2gr. I load the WW .5gr less for the same fps.
The case capacity is very close to the .20BR. I made the neck .250 long and .232 dia which requires turning. Case length is 1.770.
I've done a lot of neck sizing over the years with a TC barrel in .222 Rimmed using .357 Max brass and .22/38-55 No.3 as well as the .219 and .204 Wasp.
First time out with No.1 .204 Wasp 634 yds with 40gr V-Max at 4040 fps. Up 8.5 MOA from a 200 yd zero.
may-09 144.JPG
 
219DW said:
JSH,
The pictures that 17VLD posted are of my .204 Wasp Ruger No.1 and No.3. (thank you 17VLD). My PD shooting partner at the time had a .20BR and I wanted to match its performance with a 30-30 case and falling block rifle. 39 and 40gr at 4100fps work great out to 600 plus yards in my experience and probably farther with the right conditions. I already had Redding dies for long version (1.813) .219 Wasp with the neck die converted to use bushings so all I needed was a reamer and some more bushings. I'll post a pic of the reamer print in. The .204 or .219 Wasp are more work and money than a standard cartridge but there is that satisfaction of shooting something that not many others have.
Tried to get reamer print to post earlier, didn't work. At the end of this thread on Saubier there is a pic of my reamer print. Pacific will e-mail you a print from what I've heard.

First .20 cal project - Saubier.com

First .20 cal project Project Guns
www.saubier.com
I just checked the capacity of my .204 Wasp brass. The R-P that I use in the No.1 holds 32.5gr of Varget half way up the neck. The WW that I use in the No.3 holds 31.2gr. I load the WW .5gr less for the same fps.
The case capacity is very close to the .20BR. I made the neck .250 long and .232 dia which requires turning. Case length is 1.770.
I've done a lot of neck sizing over the years with a TC barrel in .222 Rimmed using .357 Max brass and .22/38-55 No.3 as well as the .219 and .204 Wasp.
First time out with No.1 .204 Wasp 634 yds with 40gr V-Max at 4040 fps. Up 8.5 MOA from a 200 yd zero.
View attachment 1356567
Click to expand...
Dangle that yarn don’t ya, lol
That is a fine looking rig for sure.
Talked to Todd K last year. Just called him to get a copy of all the small caliber news he had left. As mentioned just a chat. The updated version of the 20’s showed up too. I ordered a 20BR the next day and an action that week. It awaits attention.
Throated for 55 grain Berger’s.
I wish for a good 45-50 grain mix weight in a 20 caliber, easily found.

The thoughts of a 20 Wasp, that launches a 40 grain to 4100 with ease intrigues me.

If I can ask what is a good case forming procedure? I have a good supply of the good WW 30-30 brass from working with all the Herret and a 7US.
 
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