Looking for a case gage

[danny]

I am looking for a case gage. I know I am going to get multiple postings telling me to use my chamber, but I am not breaking apart my bedded M1s and M14 clones so that I can strip the bolt and get the op rods off. In the past I have used Wilson, but the only dimensions those gage that I concern myself with are from the base to the shoulder datum point. It does not gage cartridge radial dimensions. The Wilsons work great for what they are intended for. I tried a Sheridan Slotted .30-06. That gages to the datum point and radial dimensions, along with some other things that I don't monitor. I had some issues with that gage at first. I oversized some cases because some dings and other issues on the case rim caused it to stick when it was not the case itself. I learned, eventually, to inspect the case rims and clean them up if need be. However, when checking some new .30-06 Lake City ammunition, some, many? would not check out as proper sized (too big or long) in the Sheridan. I also don't agree with the choice of the gaging surfaces on the gage. I would like to look into some other similar types. If need be, I will get a Wilson and only gage to the datum point, then try slipping a few into my chamber without the bolt being part of the picture, but I think that there could be another gage that might work for me. Any suggestions?

Danny

 

[Metal God]

The Wilsons work great for what they are intended for.

Your right

 

[danny]

Your right

Unfortunately, they only do half of what I need and half of what some can do.

Danny

 

[RegionRat]

Just a suggestion...
If you weren't happy with the dimensions of the Sheridan gage, I'm wondering if you will be happy with anything less than a gage cut to your specific prescription.

If you don't find an off the shelf offering that fits your specifics, then maybe see if your gunsmith will make you up a gage to your prescriptions out of a chunk of a dead bbl? The only down side, is you can't expect it to be as inexpensive as an off the shelf version since the smith has to have the reamer and do the set-ups.

..."The gauge is machined to the SAAMI minimum chamber spec for the 30-06 caliber. This allows you to check brass sizing, headspace, bullet seating, and crimping all with one gauge."...

https://sheridanengineering.com/product/30-06-ammunition-gauge/

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Gotta make one with your reamer

 

[danny]

Just a suggestion...
If you weren't happy with the dimensions of the Sheridan gage, I'm wondering if you will be happy with anything less than a gage cut to your specific prescription.

If you don't find an off the shelf offering that fits your specifics, then maybe see if your gunsmith will make you up a gage to your prescriptions out of a chunk of a dead bbl? The only down side, is you can't expect it to be as inexpensive as an off the shelf version since the smith has to have the reamer and do the set-ups.

..."The gauge is machined to the SAAMI minimum chamber spec for the 30-06 caliber. This allows you to check brass sizing, headspace, bullet seating, and crimping all with one gauge."...

https://sheridanengineering.com/product/30-06-ammunition-gauge/

I am hoping that they are actually at SAAMI minimum, or just above, not smaller. As mentioned, some of my new LC ammunition will not fit in the gage.... Also, I do not agree with the gaging surface choices that were made. Maybe another maker makes a similar gage, but with differing gage steps in the back. I would be willing to try the other makers.

Danny

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Lyman ammo checker

 

[danny]

Lyman ammo checker

I saw those, thought those could be a possibility.

Danny

 

[danny]

Your right

I do a lot of what he does, BUT, I have to say, that on rounds fired out of a self loader, I do not believe, nor would I trust that the fired case will actually reflect the headspace of the chamber of the rifle that it was fired in.

Danny

 

[RegionRat]

As mentioned, some of my new LC ammunition will not fit in the gage.... Also, I do not agree with the gaging surface choices that were made.

The Lyman is supposed to be the same as the Sheridan, i.e., a complete chamber cut to SAAMI minimums. The main difference between the two would be the option that Sheridan can be slotted open to give a partial view which "might" help to see where a problem exists.

I read where you oversized when there was a problem with the rim, and then mentioned the line above. The Lyman and Sheridan are in theory made like a deep version of the chamber so if there is rim damage they will also fail a case that would likely still fit in a gun's chamber due to the short depth of the chamber compared to the gage.

Can you explain a little about what it is you do not agree with on the Sheridan gage? Which surfaces were you pointing out? Since the Sheridan and Lyman represent a chamber, it isn't clear what surfaces you mean or why those would make you unhappy, so it isn't clear what alternatives to suggest.

When you mentioned that some of your "new .30-06 Lake City" ammunition didn't fit, can you explain what you observed and how that was resolved? (Lake City 30-06 is rare these days....) Would that ammo have fit your gun but not passed on a particular gage? What was the cause or did you isolate it?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Jp enterprises case gages are the current gold standard off the shelf. Didnt see them mentioned here

 

[danny]

The Lyman is supposed to be the same as the Sheridan, i.e., a complete chamber cut to SAAMI minimums. The main difference between the two would be the option that Sheridan can be slotted open to give a partial view which "might" help to see where a problem exists.

I read where you oversized when there was a problem with the rim, and then mentioned the line above. The Lyman and Sheridan are in theory made like a deep version of the chamber so if there is rim damage they will also fail a case that would likely still fit in a gun's chamber due to the short depth of the chamber compared to the gage.

Can you explain a little about what it is you do not agree with on the Sheridan gage? Which surfaces were you pointing out? Since the Sheridan and Lyman represent a chamber, it isn't clear what surfaces you mean or why those would make you unhappy, so it isn't clear what alternatives to suggest.

When you mentioned that some of your "new .30-06 Lake City" ammunition didn't fit, can you explain what you observed and how that was resolved? (Lake City 30-06 is rare these days....) Would that ammo have fit your gun but not passed on a particular gage? What was the cause or did you isolate it?

I will answer part of it now, part of it later. The Lake City .30-06 that I have is new, 1960s. I am getting down to the last of it. Well, it has all fired with no issues in any of the few Garands that I have shot it in, but I never specifically checked it in any of the chambers of the rifles I have fired it in because it was new ammunition. Some of the ammunition seemed to have been delinked MG ammo. You could see that. This ammunition showed a bit of case body distortion, and sure enough that would not quite fit all of the way. I expected that. This is mixed year headstamped. I suspect that some is delinked and some not, based on the differing headstamps and noting that some don't really show signs of ever having been linked, but I can never know for sure. I tried some of those that looked to have never been linked. Some fit, some were just ever so short of fitting and being "by the book", "in spec". I was never really able to ascertain what the issue was.

Danny

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I will answer part of it now, part of it later. The Lake City .30-06 that I have is new, 1960s. I am getting down to the last of it. Well, it has all fired with no issues in any of the few Garands that I have shot it in, but I never specifically checked it in any of the chambers of the rifles I have fired it in because it was new ammunition. Some of the ammunition seemed to have been delinked MG ammo. You could see that. This ammunition showed a bit of case body distortion, and sure enough that would not quite fit all of the way. I expected that. This is mixed year headstamped. I suspect that some is delinked and some not, based on the differing headstamps and noting that some don't really show signs of ever having been linked, but I can never know for sure. I tried some of those that looked to have never been linked. Some fit, some were just ever so short of fitting and being "by the book", "in spec". I was never really able to ascertain what the issue was.

Danny

Are you fl sizing this brass before loading it? Sounds like the typical variation in new brass.

 

[RegionRat]

Danny, Sometimes that 60s brass was not to spec in the first place but shipped out anyway. I have seen many defect cases in 30-06 that should never have been shipped, but escaped sorry to say.

The problem is that LC isn't synonymous with the same meaning when talking surplus MG ammo compared to when talking National Match ammo, even though it was all called Lake City.

I would caution that your opinion of a full chamber gage may be negative for the wrong reasons. We may not be able to suggest a better gage and that may be the fault of that MG surplus rather than a fault of the gage.

Another follow up question if you know... who cut your chamber?

Many chambers have been a mix of dimensions over the years and some of them are known to be forgiving while others are not. Chambers, brass, dies, and process need to work together and sometimes the dies are easier to change than the other things in terms of overall time and expense.

You are wise to invest in your inspection tools and skills because feeding these guns in a match setting becomes more difficult as the good surplus brass options are getting harder to find.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Below is a "FIRED" Lake City 7.62-.308 case in a Dillon case gauge. The majority of case gauges are at max case body diameter. This is because the gauge companies assume new brass will be fired in your chamber and spring back slightly after firing.

Below is the same "FIRED" Lake City case in a JP Enterprise gauge and shows its smaller diameter. A brand new unfired case and a resized case will drop in and fall out of the JP Enterprise gauge "IF" resized" properly.

Meaning a fat case may need to be left in the sizing die 4 to 6 seconds to reduce brass spring back. The alternative to this is to use a small base die that reduces case diameter.

Brass hardness will effect the amount of spring back after sizing. Along with chamber diameter and die diameter.

 

[RegionRat]

The majority of case gauges are at max case body diameter.

Ed, not sure where you got this, but the case gage companies I am aware of claim to use the SAAMI Chamber Min diameters, not the cartridge body dimensions. The samples I have checked, agree with the SAAMI min chamber values not the brass.

I don't have the JP tool, and maybe they run different? If you inspected their version, did you get a difference to the SAAMI spec for chambers?

https://jprifles.com/1.5.1.2_maint.php

 

[danny]

Danny, Sometimes that 60s brass was not to spec in the first place but shipped out anyway. I have seen many defect cases in 30-06 that should never have been shipped, but escaped sorry to say.

The problem is that LC isn't synonymous with the same meaning when talking surplus MG ammo compared to when talking National Match ammo, even though it was all called Lake City.

I would caution that your opinion of a full chamber gage may be negative for the wrong reasons. We may not be able to suggest a better gage and that may be the fault of that MG surplus rather than a fault of the gage.

Another follow up question if you know... who cut your chamber?

Many chambers have been a mix of dimensions over the years and some of them are known to be forgiving while others are not. Chambers, brass, dies, and process need to work together and sometimes the dies are easier to change than the other things in terms of overall time and expense.

You are wise to invest in your inspection tools and skills because feeding these guns in a match setting becomes more difficult as the good surplus brass options are getting harder to find.

Interesting comments from you on 1960s loaded LC ammunition.

Who cut my chambers? Right now, most all of it was cut by either Springfield Armory, or whatever US Government Overhaul entity did the barreling work. I have one that I rebarreled and finish reamed myself using one of Dave Manson's "headspacing" reamers, but I have generally not been using it. I will rebarrel others soon that I will use more.

As I get time, I will have to respond to the rest of your first posting.

Danny

 

[danny]

Below is a "FIRED" Lake City 7.62-.308 case in a Dillon case gauge. The majority of case gauges are at max case body diameter. This is because the gauge companies assume new brass will be fired in your chamber and spring back slightly after firing.

Below is the same "FIRED" Lake City case in a JP Enterprise gauge and shows its smaller diameter. A brand new unfired case and a resized case will drop in and fall out of the JP Enterprise gauge "IF" resized" properly.

Meaning a fat case may need to be left in the sizing die 4 to 6 seconds to reduce brass spring back. The alternative to this is to use a small base die that reduces case diameter.

Brass hardness will effect the amount of spring back after sizing. Along with chamber diameter and die diameter.

Thanks for the info. The JP Enterprise gage is one that I had seen before and could not remember. I think that I will buy one and compare it in use to the results of my Sheridan.

Danny

 

[Uncle Ed]

Nothing is written in stone, dies can vary in diameter and headspace along with chambers. The OP is also asking about his M1s and M14 clones and not standard rifles made to SAAMI specs.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Thanks for the info. The JP Enterprise gage is one that I had seen before and could not remember. I think that I will buy one and compare it in use to the results of my Sheridan.

Danny

You also need a set of small base dies if youre going to be using LC brass. Rcbs makes them for 5.56 and 308 for sure