Long Range Camera's Yes or No in Competition?

[dreever]

I really think the long range camera will be a great tool in practice and during load development, but what about during competition?
Each shooting discipline,,and governing body) will have to decide if they will allow them during actual matches. I can see some interesting, and perhaps heated discussion on this topic.
Perhaps where you have pits and your shots spotted it won't be that big of an advantage. Conversely at Ground Hog Matches at 500-600 yards where even the best spotting scope can't see bullet holes when the mirage is heavy it would be a definite advantage for the shooter with one.

This technology is here now and by the looks of things just about ready to hit the shelves for those willing to spend the money. So how do all of you from the various shooting disciplines feel about the use of camera's during matches?

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

I think it will strictly depend on the particular discipline, with the older more established disciplines that are mostly dominated by cantakerous old curmudgeons coming out strongly against the new technology while the newer shooting disciplines that are made up mostly of the less reactionary members of the shooting community will welcome it with open arms.

 

[ReedG]

I agree that there will be lots of words exchanged before this technology is allowed in all shooting sports. As a pretender to benchrest shooting at so-called "point blank" ranges of 100 and 200 yards, the camera probably won't impact me for some time.

I think the use of remote cameras is an excellent tool and is probably no more costly than a top-of-the-line spotting scope. Not allowing the use of this technology would be akin to banning scopes and everybody using only iron sights. The camera is no more involved in shooting a target than a spotting scope, it just gives better information on what the result was.

I love the new technology, let's hope the sport embraces it.

 

[Forum Boss]

Many folks have objected to the cost which, currently, is substantial. But consider two points:

1. As Reed pointed out, you can spend as much,or more) on a quality spotting scope, plus stand and mount. And even if you have a top of the line Zeiss, what you see will be affected by mirage, unlike the camera.,However, being able to see that mirage can be a GOOD thing as it helps you "dope" the conditions your bullets must fly thorugh.)

2. As with all electronic gear, we can expect the prices to drop considerably. Even now, you can get a basic, short-range set-up for under $400 from the companies that sell security camera systems. If we see long-range systems with 600-1000 yard capabilities coming out for under $600.00 I can see a lot of guys purchasing them for training. I know I would.

Should these systems be allowed in competition? For Highpower and other iron sights competition one can clearly see the benefits. But if only the rich guys have the units it would seem to be a competitive advantage. I think the key is getting ranges equipped with the systems in place. When that happens, in time, we could dispense with pit crews and spotters. That will allow matches to be run more quickly and efficiently. In Europe many ranges have target-cam systems that automatically record the scores to a central databank.

The systems seem very costly now, but if you look at the cost of creating permanent, walled pits and heavy, metal-framed target lifters, the overall cost for a bank of video-equipped statics targets may not be all that much greater, particularly if you could use a single, multi-band transmitter to send the "video-out" from multiple cameras.

It will just take time to develop the most cost-effective installations. If we can standardize on transmission wavelengths, etc., then maybe shooters would bring their own monitors and the ranges would only have to provide cameras and a multi-channel transmitter.

And, perhaps the National Sanctioning bodies could purchase the equipment, which would be moved from range to range for major regional and National Matches. That way individual clubs hosting big matches wouldn't have to absorb the full cost of a target-cam installation.

 

[dreever]

I think another thing we have to consider is it in keeping with the spirit of the particular shooting sport. For example at the Ground Hog Matches it may not be in the spirit of the game.
I think it's a great tool, and when the price becomes more affordable I'll consider one for serious practice at 500-600 yards.

As far as individual clubs springing for cameras I don't see that happening at our particular club. It's just not something the Board of Directors would approve. Also there are always the idiots that shoot target frames,range flags, etc. that nobody ever sees that would probably see them as another "target". Every range has those Bozo's but nobody can ever catch them in the act so they can be kicked out of the club. We've had 1/2 inch steel swingers day-lighted at 500 meters by some big caliber so I can just imagine what would happen to that protective steel box the camera is in.

 

[mikecr]

Pull all stops during practice.

But competition is suppose to be a test of your shooting system, including skill. If telemetry such as a remote camera is allowed,which is nothing remotely close to spotting with a scope from the bench), then I can see electronic wind feedback, and eventually radar transmitted from the same tower.
Eventually this feedback, washed through a laptop, could be used to indicate holdoff on the fly. Control servos in the rest or even scope.
Just more to reduce the sport to spectacle..

Personally, I don't think anything should be allowed forward of the bench. I think ALL used should be weighed together as a system. And I think you should carry, on foot, all used for shooting downrange to set your target, and return before shooting,without sighters).
With this, there should be no equipment limits, and no way to challenge the spirit. There would also develop many contributions to the shooting world out there. This is not the case today.

But I don't compete, and I'm not Benchrest Supreme Commander.
Your lucky

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

Yeah Mike, competitions should be limited to flintlocks with smooth bores, just like God intended. All of these new fangled things like pointed bullets and optical sights are just tools of the devil.

Just kidding, but I'm sure that you can see where this is going!

 

[cpttango30]

I am not a competitive shooter. I can see where it would ba an advantage for all shooters who could afford it but, where is the sport in using a camera pointing at the target from three feet. The cost of installing something like it would be in my mind the limiting factor. You are going to need high quality camers then power for them and cabeling for them too unless you are running on a wireless network. There are camera out there that will on wired or wireless networks but for the quality you would need for benchrest shooting i would have to say your going to need the high end wired networked cameras. Now you have to figure out where to put them. Me I would burry them behind a berm of dirt about 4" thick then place them in a reenforced concrete bunker with a removable locking plexyglass door on them facing the target. That way they are cut off from weather and fingers. Because we all know that some people just do stupid things.

So now we have wired camers electricty to them and network Cat5e or cat6 cabling well if your shooting over 90 meters your going to need to either add repeters or jump to fiber optic cabling. Which you would still need to have repeters for also.

That is unless you went with cameras that transmit over the air you would not have cabeling but you would have to have repeters and signal boosters. by the time you get all this stuff installed and working your going to have so much stuff around the range your not going to be able to shoot. I could see if you were using an indoor range. maybe but where is there a 600 yard indoor range?

I say just deal with it you have been doing so for how long. I think there comes a point in a sport that too much technology takes away so much that it makes it no fun to watch of particapate in. Look at Indy cars no one hardly watches or attends them anymore. Because they are boring a fly sneezes on one of them cars and the spin out and explode. Where as NASCAR you can hit the wall and keep on truckin if you did not hit to hard. That is me though.

 

[mikecr]

I know what you mean. And I'm actually more pro-technology than most people. Provided the technology contributes something positive across the shooting board. It should provide with a connection to the basics. Maybe a purpose..
A folding competition bipod would be such an example. Adjustable scope bases & locking turrets address real world shooting challenges.

Otherwise, It's just another carburetor in NASCAR.. Useless throughout the driving world.
Ok, maybe this is more like racing clockwise!
You know, there was a time when NASCAR produced great advancements for man. There was a time when benchrest did the same..

So what would electronic feedback do for competition?
How would it be policed?
What would it contribute to mankind?

While I'm at it, what is the purpose of benchrest?

 

[JER]

You know, there was a time when NASCAR produced great advancements for man.

LOL!!!!!!!! You aren't serious.....are you?

I cannot think of a SINGLE advancement in automotive technology used today in the real world that came from NASCRAP.

The majority of them came from Formula 1. Radial tires, disc brakes, independent suspensions, data recording, fule injection, electronic fuel injection, traction control, throttle by wire, etc, etc, etc,.

 

[ReedG]

The remote camera is not a sighting device and does nothing more than let you accurately determine where your shots are hitting. The same thing people now do with spotting scopes or target spotters. It does nothing that I can see to take the mystery out of wind conditions or mirage, etc.

There are plenty of times at 200 yards at my range that mirage or "heavy air" prevent one from seeing bullet holes, even with very expensive scopes and/or spotting scopes. The guys who shoot 6X scopes have an even tougher time.

I wonder -- did the purists argue against spotting scopes when people started using them? Bet they did.

I don't even care if they use electronic wind flags, as long as they are not connected to a computing device to suggest hold-off, etc. If they simply tell wind direction and/or velocity what is wrong with that?

There's a saying in Christian ministry that "Sin will take you farther than you want to go and keep you longer than you want to stay." Benchrest shooting will make you do things you don't want to do and spend money you don't have to spend. And we call it "fun".

 

[dreever]

Another thing to consider is the effect that a competitor using one will have on the function itself. Where I'm located our club has to compete with three or four other clubs in the general area who also put on Ground Hog Matches. Lets say a competitor shows up with one of these and we allow it giving him a distinct advantage at 500M. He's a good shot, has top end equipment, and begins winning because of his ability to see bullet holes with his camera on the sighter as well as the record target. When the other shooters get disgruntled they will stop shooting at our club and go to one of the other clubs in the area instead. There are barely enough Ground Hog competitors to spread around as it is, so by allowing the one person with the camera we in fact are hurting our attendance. Sometimes like this coming weekend for example there are three clubs holding matches on the same day. Since there is no governing organization over these matches each club makes their own rules so competitors have a choice where they can shoot.
You can see what I'm getting at. It would come down to a decision by our Match Committee if we would allow a person who shows up with one to use it. I can almost say with 100% certainy we would not allow it's use.

 

[mikecr]

It's true the world has gone right past NASCAR. It has zero value today beyond spectacle.


I'm telling you, if electronic devices are allowed downrange, original intent,spirit) will fade quickly. This is something that cannot be policed or controlled. My windflag looking gizmo might include an accoustic array w/transmitter. The beeps in one of my earplugs might turn solid tone, when my rest position matches correct holdoff. This, based on sighter cal and error tracking/prediction software solutions transmitted from my camper. Seems crazy, I'm sure..
The same arguments are going on today w/regard to fuel injection in NASCAR. Anyone can suggest that FI is a good thing. Combined with modern tires, pit stops would no longer be needed.
But it just isn't so simple in a competitive environment. It opens a whole new world for those looking to win at any cost. And if it can happen with any chance in the furthest stretch of imagination, it will.

I'm out. It's not my place.
I just think you should be careful of what you wish for.

 

[mattc]

hello
dreever I disagree with you on that.
I have yet to go to any type of match that is fair to everybody including hog matchs.
If somebody has a spoter telling them were there shots are going and someone does not is that fair?
other clubs only let certain ppl become members and does not let others. is this fair for anybody that goes to one of there matchs and can't join the club to practice ?
One of the hog matchs I use to go to in the past know has a new rule that you can't practice before the match. Is this fair to someone that lives a hour away and has to shot against someone that shots every weekend at that rang? So why not a camera?

matt

 

[Longshot]

hello
dreever I disagree with you on that.
I have yet to go to any type of match that is fair to everybody including hog matchs.
If somebody has a spoter telling them were there shots are going and someone does not is that fair?
other clubs only let certain ppl become members and does not let others. is this fair for anybody that goes to one of there matchs and can't join the club to practice ?
One of the hog matchs I use to go to in the past know has a new rule that you can't practice before the match. Is this fair to someone that lives a hour away and has to shot against someone that shots every weekend at that rang? So why not a camera?

matt

So you're saying that because the playing field can't be made completely level, we should turn it on edge without considering the consequences? I think the introduction of a technology that has the potential to make as significant a change in the way 600/100 yard BR matches are conducted as this deserves a bit more thought.

Does the remote camera really offer a significant advantage?

All these devices require line of sight between the transmitter and receiver. How do we deal with the forest of antennae that's likely to spring up?

What about transmission frequency conflicts?

How would we deal with the situation where someone's camera gets nailed in a cross-fire?

Admittedly, it'll take some experimentation to find answers for these and all the other questions the use of remote cameras in competition brings up. While I'm whole-heartedly in favor of giving this a try, let's not let enthusiasm for the potential benefits blind us to the possible problems.

- Bert

 

[dreever]

mattc,

The only way it's ever going to be fair to everybody I suppose in your opinion would be to have only one make of rifle/caliber allowed with factory ammunition and identical scopes etc. for everybody.
That's the only true way to level the playing field. But not really, I don't have 20-20 eyesight so I'm at a disadvantage what then? I see what you are saying, but sometimes you just have to say this is what we've decided to be in every ones best interest including the club whose grounds you are shooting on. The only way to change things is to get involved, get on the committees, run for office etc. That's the only way to change club policy.
As to clubs not allowing you to join, well it certainly wasn't our club. We are open and accepting new members.
Bottom line is the only way to change things is to get involved.
Come on out, we'd love to have you shoot with us this Saturday.

Danny

 

[JER]

Most of you seem unaware that electronic targets have been used in Europe and in the Olympics for position shooting without controversy for almost 20 years.

We are so far behind the state of the art in shooting facilities that it is frankly embarrasing.

 

[rstreich]

My answer would be that any competition that allows the use of a scope--mounted on the rifle, off to the side on some sort of stand,i.e., a spotting scope), or both--should allow cameras down range. The only argument that has come up against them is that those people who are able and willing to spend the money for them will have an unfair advantage. So what? Those same people are the ones that spend $2600 on a March scope and perhaps just as much on a high-end spotting scope, so they already have an advantage. In fact, now that I say it, it might work out to be just the reverse: some shooters might opt to get a lesser scope for their rifle and forego a spotting scope altogether just to buy the camera.

A couple of related points worth mentioning:

- Feedback on shot location in long-range matches has been the norm since the inception of what I think is still the most popular rifle competition in the US--High-Power Rifle. But the feedback comes at the cost of having to wait anywhere from 5 to 30 or more seconds for the pit crew to spot and score your shot.

- Several people tried pointing out the fact that many competitions already use the equivalent of a camera--they have electronic scoring and each shooter has a monitor to show exactly where the hit was. Not many ranges in the US have the money to afford one of these systems, but it would be nice if they could.

So, it's not like feedback on shot location is something new. I think instantaneous feedback in the form of electronic scoring has been around for twenty years or more.

There are also a couple of challenges that you have to deal with when you have feedback on shot location, even if it's instantaneous: First, for a benchrest shooter who is trying to run the condition, you have to stop and look at it. With an electronic scoring system this is easy 'cause the display is really clean and all you have to do is check for an outlying shot. With a camera, you'll have to search the target face for a bullet hole that is sometimes hard to find even when it's right in front of your face. I suspect that a lot of people would try them only to give up in frustration.

Second, what do you do when you see that shot poking way out at 9:00, but all your indicators tell you that there was no change in the condition? If you've ever shot much High Power, you've probably scored someone before that spent the whole match clicking their way all around the 8 or 9 ring. The only time the "bad news" feedback really helps you is when you see the shot out AND see the change in condition,after the fact, sadly) that pushed you out there. It'll take the experienced shooter to have the faith in his or her ability to read the condition, not touch a thing, and put the next shot right down the middle.

Finally, I don't believe that allowing cameras downrange would have any impact at all on which shooters appeared at the top of the list month after month. The good shooters will always be there.

robert

 

[memilanuk]

Most of you seem unaware that electronic targets have been used in Europe and in the Olympics for position shooting without controversy for almost 20 years.

I knew they used those for the indoor events such as air rifle and smallbore,scores are no longer just a '10' or a '9', but '10.0','10.1', etc... scary!) but what about the 300m fullbore UIT/CISM stuff? None of the pictures of the Euro benchrest ranges or long range facilities such as Bisley that I've seen show any kind of electronic target systems.

 

[rstreich]

I knew they used those for the indoor events such as air rifle and smallbore,scores are no longer just a '10' or a '9', but '10.0','10.1', etc... scary!) but what about the 300m fullbore UIT/CISM stuff? None of the pictures of the Euro benchrest ranges or long range facilities such as Bisley that I've seen show any kind of electronic target systems.

I doubt that you'll find a lot of them on long range facilities since there just isn't as much draw for long-range competitions. We have one here just outside Minneapolis, but like many others, it's for 300-meter comps.

300-meter club in Bisley