Load for 308 CFE223 185 Berger VLD

[72Slovelle]

I want to start developing a load for a bolt gun:
FN A5 SPR 20" 1:12 308 Win
CFE223
Berger 185 VLD's
New Lapua brass
CCI BR-2
New RCBS Competition Die

Just to make holes in paper from 100-600 and occasional 1,000.

Searched and searched, just can't find a lot data on this deal.

Mostly played with Varget, 175 SMK's and some 185 Bergers with mixed brass and standard reloading dies.

My first thoughts are OAL to be 2.810-? Does not need to feed from mag.

Powder starting at 44 work up to 46??

Any suggestions would be great.

 

[Metal God]

I've only used CFE-223 in 223 loads but had a hard time getting good consistencies with ES/SD . My understanding is it's not very temp stable . Then there's the fact it's a ball powder you will be trying to ignite 44gr+ of . That all screams potential inconsistent loads to me . I think it's burn rate is good for that weight bullet but also think IMR 4064 , AR-comp , Varget , N140 might be better choices .

Also the recommended twist rate for that bullet is 1-11 .

 

[Carolina Hillbilly]

I use 46.7g with a 175SMK in Winchester brass. 2730 fps at 50deg with 8 sd. 26" Hart barrel. 1-11.25 twist. 2.845 oal.
I dump it with a Harrells measure for quick loading. Makes the steel ring at 600.

 

[Metal God]

Just to clarify didn't mean to sound like it won't work . Just feel there are better options .

 

[Darrel Martin]

Welcome to the forum.I use CFE223 in a Remington 308 with a Krieger 10 twist barrel . It loves 208 AMAX'S at 43.4 gr 10 off the lands.. I use Lapua palma brass and Remington 7 1/2 primers. Velocity is 2550.OAL is a little long for the clip so I file back the polymer tip just a little on the back up rounds. Usually only one shot per hog.When I worked up the load the gun never shot a group bigger than .4'' and was in the .1's at the lower and higher nodes with 3 shot groups.

 

[Laurie]

I got very high MVs, but otherwise indifferent results testing it in a 32-inch barrel F/TR rifle with 155 and 178gn Hornadys. As with many ball powders, it has a relatively narrow charge / pressure band where it is efficient - poor ES below and quickly strays into excessive pressures above.

I see you're planning large primer brass and BR2s. Good! I had no ignition problems with LR primers, but Lapua 'Palma' small primer brass saw most rounds suffer hangfires and 2 ex 50 test rounds were complete misfires - primers had ignited, but the powder didn't. Not in hard winter conditions either - 15 or 16-deg C (high 50s / low 60s).

 

[72Slovelle]

Thanks for the replies so far. Wanted some better velocities, the reason for CFE. Purchased 2 pounds of it. If I can't get it to group well I can simply switch back to Varget or maybe try another powder. Open to any advice. My brother and I have some friendly competition when we can. He has a couple precision rifles that I need to stay on top of.

 

[Darrel Martin]

I got very high MVs, but otherwise indifferent results testing it in a 32-inch barrel F/TR rifle with 155 and 178gn Hornadys. As with many ball powders, it has a relatively narrow charge / pressure band where it is efficient - poor ES below and quickly strays into excessive pressures above.

I see you're planning large primer brass and BR2s. Good! I had no ignition problems with LR primers, but Lapua 'Palma' small primer brass saw most rounds suffer hangfires and 2 ex 50 test rounds were complete misfires - primers had ignited, but the powder didn't. Not in hard winter conditions either - 15 or 16-deg C (high 50s / low 60s).

I think the Rem 7 1/2 primers are an important part of the formula. In German Salazar's primer testing they were hotter than other primers . With them, I have had no hangfire problems , though I live in Texas so it is usually not terribly cold.

 

[72Slovelle]

Thank you Darrel. The big AMAX's interested me but with a 1:12 I thought it would be heavy.

Lapua brass and BR2's are the plan. Brass is new and will stay with the rifle. Have owned it for 4 or 5 years and it has even taken a cow Elk.

 

[72Slovelle]

Also in my stock I have Remington 7 1/2 BR SR, Wincherster WLR, CC1 Large 250's if any of these would be a better option.

 

[Darrel Martin]

Also in my stock I have Remington 7 1/2 BR SR, Wincherster WLR, CC1 Large 250's if any of these would be a better option.

The Rem 7 1/2 primers are mainly relevant to the palma brass.It has occurred to me that if I were going to use CFE223 in large primer brass that I might try a hotter primer such as a magnum primer but I never needed to experiment as it worked so well in the small primer palma brass.

 

[Crosshair1]

I've ran 185vlds in a 10 twist 30" barrel,
2.980" coal and 46gn cfe gave me approx 2720fps with lapua lrg primer brass and cci200s.

Shot well out to 600yds but e.s. prevented it from being used at 1000yds.

Have also tested hornady 208 bthp over cfe up to a maximum of 46gn but the es was only becoming acceptable as the pressure signs were beginning to show.

 

[Laurie]

I think the Rem 7 1/2 primers are an important part of the formula. In German Salazar's primer testing they were hotter than other primers . With them, I have had no hangfire problems , though I live in Texas so it is usually not terribly cold.

Have a look at

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=2662

............ my SR primer tests in 308 'Palma' brass in the same rifle. There is a great deal less performance variation than in using LR primers in 308 Win.

The primer that suffered the hang/misfires was the Italian Fiocchi 7 1/2 which produced the 4th highest MV ex 15 models with the Viht N150 test load.

So, it is not a 'weak' primer by any standard. (Its ES/SD performance was near the top too with N150 indicative of producing perfect ignition.)

However, even if a 'hotter' primer model would have seen CFE ignite without any issues, it suggests that ignition has to be marginal for this size of charge of this particular powder with the SR size primer.

No, we don't often see Texas temperatures on Diggle Ranges - ~1,000 ft ASL in the north of England and notorious for variable weather, and often damned cold weather at that. The local joke goes on the lines of:

..... for seven months of the year, Diggle is wet, windy, cold, pretty horrible all round, THEN ........ winter starts!

 

[Zero333]

I would try 42gr to 44 gr of CFE-223 with Magnum primers under the 185vld.

My 308 gas gun beats the crap out of the bolt and brass with Max loads.
Makes me cringe.
Keeping the working pressures between 48,000 and 55,000 psi is the sweet spot.
This is with a mag friendly COAL of 2.795"
If singe shot feeding and increasing the COAL above 2.830" you can try going up to 46 gr CFE-223. Slowly.

 

[72Slovelle]

I would try 42gr to 44 gr of CFE-223 with Magnum primers under the 185vld.

My 308 gas gun beats the crap out of the bolt and brass with Max loads.
Makes me cringe.
Keeping the working pressures between 48,000 and 55,000 psi is the sweet spot.
This is with a mag friendly COAL of 2.795"
If singe shot feeding and increasing the COAL above 2.830" you can try going up to 46 gr CFE-223. Slowly.

Thanks. The bolt gun has a detachable mag, at the range I single feed only so increasing the COAL to what the gun likes is the plan.

 

[Zero333]

Thanks. The bolt gun has a detachable mag, at the range I single feed only so increasing the COAL to what the gun likes is the plan.

I missed the part that you're working with a bolt gun.

I saw FN and automatically assumed gas gun.

46 gr cfe223 in a bolt gun is good. Use magnum primers.

 

[allen529]

I would look up load data from hogdon and see what their pressures anfor all the powders they recommended in your 12tw barrel. Thats what they used but with a 24" barrel so keep that in mind. I used their data with the 208's and liked it but I am shooting a 10tw 28" barrel.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

 

[72Slovelle]

For many years I used H380 (that .22-.250 powder) with 10 & 12 twist .308W and the Hornady 168 match bullet with great results up to 600. I used CCI 200 primers. The H380 filled the case to about 95 plus %. H380 and CFE 223 are similar but not identical. Another shooter having extraordinary skills and accomplishments (master level plus) used the same H380 & 168 bullet load. I would guess the only way to determine ES with your H CFE 223 loads would be to actually measure velocity spreads. The 185's & CFE 223 sound like a good combo. I don't see any advantage in magnum primers over your planned use of CCI BR2's.

I have both on the self and have not decided. Seen a lot of people run the magnums in similar loads. Only thing I can come up with is lighting it off efficiently every time under different weather conditions, being more sensitive to cold and hot loads? Far from experienced as many on here... just trying to learn more.

Thanks, Jarad.

 

[fyrewall]

I have both on the self and have not decided. Seen a lot of people run the magnums in similar loads. Only thing I can come up with is lighting it off efficiently every time under different weather conditions, being more sensitive to cold and hot loads? Far from experienced as many on here... just trying to learn more.

Thanks, Jarad.

******
how hot is hot & how cold is cold ?

My use with H380 in my .308 W loads using CCI 200 primers was always between 45 to 80 degrees & it worked just fine like many "X"'s but only testing at extremes will tell.

CCI 34's - "For 7.62mm Ammunition" on the box, are supposedly hotter than CCI 200's & BR-2, and the 34's are intended for use under all conditions - icy cold (sub-zero) to blazing hot (110 or such). The 34's have slightly different cup dimensions being intended for gas guns. All sorts of powders might be loaded in 7.62's. Should the 34's be hotter than standard primers it would certainly support the use of magnum primers in your loads but some testing should be done.

 

[72Slovelle]

******
how hot is hot & how cold is cold ?

My use with H380 in my .308 W loads using CCI 200 primers was always between 45 to 80 degrees & it worked just fine like many "X"'s but only testing at extremes will tell.

CCI 34's - "For 7.62mm Ammunition" on the box, are supposedly hotter than CCI 200's & BR-2, and the 34's are intended for use under all conditions - icy cold (sub-zero) to blazing hot (110 or such). The 34's have slightly different cup dimensions being intended for gas guns. All sorts of powders might be loaded in 7.62's. Should the 34's be hotter than standard primers it would certainly support the use of magnum primers in your loads but some testing should be done.

Really not the extreme in either direction. In KY and OH. Mostly likely from 40 to 90*.