Load Development Question

[64Rambler]

Hi All, Working on a load for 7mm-08 and have done a powder ladder / OCW type test. I've got a touching clover-leaf group with an ES of 62 and 2 charges up I've got a 1.1" group with an ES of 2! All the same seating depth. Is this simply a matter of playing with seating depth on the ES=2 load? Given that this is for 600 and 1000 yd shooting, I can't imagine the ES=62 is going to do me any good at distance.

UPDATED POST:
Zermott Origin Action
Criterion 26" Standard Palma
7mm-08 Rem w/ 0.100" freebore at 0.2841" diameter, Manson reamer
TrigerTech Special set at 1 lb

Norma Brass, one fired, 0.0015" shoulder bump on FLS, 0.0025" neck tension
Hornady 162 gr ELD-M
StaBall 6.5 from Autotrickler v4
CCI BR-2 primers

	1​	2​	3​	4​	5​	6​	7​	8​	9​
Powder Charge Ladder @ 2.215 CTBO	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​
StaBall 6.5 (gn)	46.0​	46.3​	46.6​	46.9​	47.2​	47.5​	47.8​	48.1​	48.4​
1​	2731​	2709​	2746​	2779​	2816​	2807​	2814​	2842​	2863​
2​	2660​	2727​	2732​	2767​	2754​	2809​	2828​	2864​	2870​
3​	2697​	2728​	2715​	2762​	2784​	2808​	2821​	2858​	2881​
Avg	2696​	2721​	2731​	2769​	2785​	2808​	2821​	2855​	2871​
ES	71​	19​	31​	17​	62​	2​	14​	22​	18​
SD	35.5​	10.7​	15.5​	8.7​	31.0​	1.0​	7.0​	11.4​	9.1​
Group Size	1.307​	1.040​	0.638​	0.951​	0.288​	1.100​	1.565​	0.930​	1.235​
2 touching @				0.202​				0.328​

These were shot round robin; low to high, low to high, low to high. I had one hard lift on load #8 with a smear on the head stamp. I had ALL hard lifts, smears, and one clicker on load 9 (last shot). So to me, 8 and 9 are off the table.
Thanks,
Scott

 

[Fuj]

How many shots in the group ?? Was that ES of 62 spread around
or was just one shot way out of the norm ?? What powder and
bullets are you using, let alone equipment your shooting with ??
Most assuredly you can have an ugly group with a real tight ES but,
I think there is something else going on.

 

[JFrank]

Probably should also post your tuning ladder so these fellas can give you some insight to what’s going on.

 

[Mulligan]

NOT trying to be ornery, cantankerous, or persnickety, but.....................................

Well, I deleted what I was "going to say" because it wouldn't be helpful anyway.

I have been in your shoes more than once. Each time I ignored what the target was telling me and focused on the chronograph........... I was left at the alter....... always the brides maid, never the bride.

Not one single time have I been able to use the chronograph to tune with and came out in a better place. I do use a chronograph after tuning, to see where I am and so I know how to get back there when I change stuff (powder lots and the like).

I shoot with lots of folks who tune with the voodoo box, I never see them on the podium. I have also never seen a "low SD" award handed out at any match. Nor have I ever seen a "great waterline" award either. Come to think of it, the lady that does stats for us has suggested a "That Guy" award several times....... I should pay attention to her more often.

Jim (in the post above) is spot on, he and others can help sort out the pepper from the fly doo-doo on a ladder test.

If at all possible, test at the distance you are going to compete or move in next door to Bart, he can tune at 100 and compete at any distance and he uses the chronograph but doesn't let the dang thing use him.

Good morning and I hope you have a great day
CW

Edit
I suppose I should have said...... like wind flags and mean girls, and used car salesmen, chronographs lie.
CW

 

[Dimner]

Hi All, Working on a load for 7mm-08 and have done a powder ladder / OCW type test. I've got a touching clover-leaf group with an ES of 62 and 2 charges up I've got a 1.1" group with an ES of 2! All the same seating depth. Is this simply a matter of playing with seating depth on the ES=2 load? Given that this is for 600 and 1000 yd shooting, I can't imagine the ES=62 is going to do me any good at distance.
Thanks,
Scott

I have tried many different kinds of load development, ladders, ocw, nodes a combination of everything... but when I stumbled onto this thread, everything got much easier:

Long range load development at 100 yards.

I found this target, and I think it's a perfect example of how some people might choose the wrong load because they fell in love with a group without reading the groups properly. This target was shot with my 6.5x47 Lapua and 139 gr. Lapua Scenars with VV N550 powder. At plain sight, 38.5 gr...

forum.accurateshooter.com

You will still use some of the same methods that you have been using, but you will learn to look at your targets differently as well as not rely on chronograph data for primary decision-making.

I have used the method described in the link on 5 different rifles and it always delivers.

Cliff notes:
Find a stable horizontal POI
Fine tune that POI
Test for seating depth

 

[STOMP442]

Chrony data is the very last thing I worry about when tuning a load. I look for the results I want on paper, then run it through the chronograph and see what it tells me. I jot that info down so I have it but I don't let it influence me if I have a good thing going.

 

[dkhunt14]

NOT trying to be ornery, cantankerous, or persnickety, but.....................................

Well, I deleted what I was "going to say" because it wouldn't be helpful anyway.

I have been in your shoes more than once. Each time I ignored what the target was telling me and focused on the chronograph........... I was left at the alter....... always the brides maid, never the bride.

Not one single time have I been able to use the chronograph to tune with and came out in a better place. I do use a chronograph after tuning, to see where I am and so I know how to get back there when I change stuff (powder lots and the like).

I shoot with lots of folks who tune with the voodoo box, I never see them on the podium. I have also never seen a "low SD" award handed out at any match. Nor have I ever seen a "great waterline" award either. Come to think of it, the lady that does stats for us has suggested a "That Guy" award several times....... I should pay attention to her more often.

Jim (in the post above) is spot on, he and others can help sort out the pepper from the fly doo-doo on a ladder test.

If at all possible, test at the distance you are going to compete or move in next door to Bart, he can tune at 100 and compete at any distance and he uses the chronograph but doesn't let the dang thing use him.

Good morning and I hope you have a great day
CW

Edit
I suppose I should have said...... like wind flags and mean girls, and used car salesmen, chronographs lie.
CW

This is what I have found. I've had ES of 2 and it went all vertical at 1000. I mean bad vertical. This was with multiple guns and it doesn't make sense, but the targets tell the story. While on the subject of tuning, I have never had a barrel shoot better off the lands that in. Matt

 

[glockaholic]

ES of 2 or 62 is a grade of your reloading process. It should not be used to find a group. Groups size and shape should be used for picking powder charge and seating depth. If you can’t see the shape then go to a longer distance.

 

[JFrank]

@64Rambler
If you can post the test targets you’ll get the input you are seeking.

 

[64Rambler]

This is what I have found. I've had ES of 2 and it went all vertical at 1000. I mean bad vertical. This was with multiple guns and it doesn't make sense, but the targets tell the story. While on the subject of tuning, I have never had a barrel shoot better off the lands that in. Matt

Agree. If it posts, this was from fireforming primed Norma brass using Sierra MatchKing 150 gr, 0.016" from touching the lands (brand new barrel) with 14 yr old IMR 4350, a low load of 45 gr, MV at 2660, ES of 72 (3 shot groups are touching at 100 yds). Not sure what happened on shot #6 (x-ring), but I KNOW I pulled #10, so the rest are in a vertical column matching the ES, but width-wise it's less than 1 moa. This is why I'm hesitant to go straight to the smallest group. I'd be happy with a group that's only as tall as this is wide, hence the focus on ES.
Unfortunately, I am just about out of the SMK 150's, and they seem to be unobtanium now, as are Bergers. I can get rudolf's all day long, so trying to make it work with those. See updated original post for current load details.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Bill Norris]

Chrony data is the very last thing I worry about when tuning a load. I look for the results I want on paper, then run it through the chronograph and see what it tells me. I jot that info down so I have it but I don't let it influence me if I have a good thing going.

Agree. The chrony is the last thing I look at. The target won't lie.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Agree. The chrony is the last thing I look at. The target won't lie.

Yep, the target determines who wins, not the chronograph or ES and SD....

 

[JLT]

Another important observation - three shot strings are not enough for a reasonable level of confidence in any of the statistics, including the average. Ten shot strings are getting there.

I wouldn't recommend using the chronograph data for anything more than a gross indication at this point.

 

[K22]

Watch the Hornady Podcast, No. 050, which deals with sample size in load development and evaluation of test data.

 

[64Rambler]

I have tried many different kinds of load development, ladders, ocw, nodes a combination of everything... but when I stumbled onto this thread, everything got much easier:

Long range load development at 100 yards.

I found this target, and I think it's a perfect example of how some people might choose the wrong load because they fell in love with a group without reading the groups properly. This target was shot with my 6.5x47 Lapua and 139 gr. Lapua Scenars with VV N550 powder. At plain sight, 38.5 gr...

forum.accurateshooter.com

You will still use some of the same methods that you have been using, but you will learn to look at your targets differently as well as not rely on chronograph data for primary decision-making.

I have used the method described in the link on 5 different rifles and it always delivers.

Cliff notes:
Find a stable horizontal POI
Fine tune that POI
Test for seating depth

OK, so I started from scratch, found jam by his method and followed Eric's formula (the 9/17/14 update) and got the following target which gave me 2 OK groups. The 47.0 load doesn't have consistent POI right and left, but 47.8 does, so I'm thinking to start seating depth adjustment there for Eric's #2 step in the process. I also have chrono data for this. I had the fortune to be seated next to a guy with a Garmin and velocities from that were a very consistent 18 fps faster than my Comp Electronics at 12'.

Grid is 0.36" (0.1 MIL at 100 Yds to match scope graduations)

1/11/24​

JAM = 2.2750"

#1

#2

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

H162 ELD-M

New Ladder

CTBO

46.00​

46.20​

46.40​

46.60​

46.80​

47.00​

47.20​

47.40​

47.60​

47.80​

48.00​

SB 6.5

Jam - 0.020

2.255​

1​

2683​

2724​

2721​

2726​

2773​

2770​

2759​

2788​

2802​

2805​

2795​

CCI BR-2

2​

2704​

2713​

2719​

2727​

2745​

2766​

2783​

2794​

2790​

2778​

2808​

3​

2708​

2676​

2707​

2743​

2764​

2780​

2771​

2802​

2818​

2783​

Avg

2698.3​

2704.3​

2715.7​

2732.0​

2760.7​

2772.0​

2771.0​

2794.7​

2803.3​

2788.7​

2801.5​

ES

25​

48​

14​

17​

28​

14​

24​

14​

28​

27​

13​

SD

13.43​

25.15​

7.57​

9.54​

14.29​

7.21​

12.00​

7.02​

14.05​

14.36​

9.19​

Group Size

1.007​

1.012​

1.175​

0.678​

1.055​

0.686​

0.888​

1.842​

1.245​

0.593​

0.639​

2 Touching @

0.109​

0.219​

0.159​

0.306​

 

[Fuj]

What is your barrel twist so I can get an idea for a bullet. I did read
that you have a .100 free bore is that correct ?? What in the way of
powder do you have on hand other then Staball.....Other then that,
I'm not a fan of anything with a plastic tip, but I will tell you to repeat
the above test but .035" off the lands for your 3 best groups, then
repeat that being .020" off the lands for the best of those.

 

[64Rambler]

What is your barrel twist so I can get an idea for a bullet. I did read
that you have a .100 free bore is that correct ?? What in the way of
powder do you have on hand other then Staball.....Other then that,
I'm not a fan of anything with a plastic tip, but I will tell you to repeat
the above test but .035" off the lands for your 3 best groups, then
repeat that being .020" off the lands for the best of those.

9 twist

 

[64Rambler]

9 twist

How different are the Berger VLD target from VLD hunting as far as groups go for a given bullet weight both with optimized loads? Should I expect a big difference in group size?
Here's some 150 SMK groups from a brand new barrel Shots 33-58 with SMK, 2 ELD-M, and 3 VLDs - zero load development, just fire forming brass, and getting used to a new rifle. Ironically all the same powder charge; 45.0 gn IMR4350 and seating depth; 0.010 off lands (touch, not jam).

 

[drop_point]

Hi All, Working on a load for 7mm-08 and have done a powder ladder / OCW type test. I've got a touching clover-leaf group with an ES of 62 and 2 charges up I've got a 1.1" group with an ES of 2! All the same seating depth. Is this simply a matter of playing with seating depth on the ES=2 load? Given that this is for 600 and 1000 yd shooting, I can't imagine the ES=62 is going to do me any good at distance.

UPDATED POST:
Zermott Origin Action
Criterion 26" Standard Palma
7mm-08 Rem w/ 0.100" freebore at 0.2841" diameter, Manson reamer
TrigerTech Special set at 1 lb

Norma Brass, one fired, 0.0015" shoulder bump on FLS, 0.0025" neck tension
Hornady 162 gr ELD-M
StaBall 6.5 from Autotrickler v4
CCI BR-2 primers

	1​	2​	3​	4​	5​	6​	7​	8​	9​
Powder Charge Ladder @ 2.215 CTBO	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​	2.215​
StaBall 6.5 (gn)	46.0​	46.3​	46.6​	46.9​	47.2​	47.5​	47.8​	48.1​	48.4​
1​	2731​	2709​	2746​	2779​	2816​	2807​	2814​	2842​	2863​
2​	2660​	2727​	2732​	2767​	2754​	2809​	2828​	2864​	2870​
3​	2697​	2728​	2715​	2762​	2784​	2808​	2821​	2858​	2881​
Avg	2696​	2721​	2731​	2769​	2785​	2808​	2821​	2855​	2871​
ES	71​	19​	31​	17​	62​	2​	14​	22​	18​
SD	35.5​	10.7​	15.5​	8.7​	31.0​	1.0​	7.0​	11.4​	9.1​
Group Size	1.307​	1.040​	0.638​	0.951​	0.288​	1.100​	1.565​	0.930​	1.235​
2 touching @				0.202​				0.328​

These were shot round robin; low to high, low to high, low to high. I had one hard lift on load #8 with a smear on the head stamp. I had ALL hard lifts, smears, and one clicker on load 9 (last shot). So to me, 8 and 9 are off the table.
Thanks,
Scott

I'll theorize that #5 ES is not correct. I bet it was a bad reading. However, I bet if you did some length tweaking with #6, you'll get it to shoot.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

In 2 Different Cartridges ( My 6 XC and, 6.5 Creed ) I found that, the BEST Powder / bullet accuracy Nodes were about, One to 1 1/2 grains, under Max charge, of StaBall 65, produced the Best, REPEATABLE, Groups.
I'd replay, Powder Loads,.. #4, #5 and, #6 with some Bullet,.. "Tuning".
Some Bullets like to be, "Jammed" others,.. .050 to .130 "Off" Jam point.
Keep in Mind that that, the 7 MM-08 chamber reamer, HAS a 3* Throat angle and HATES "Some" VLD style, Bullets. My Son had good Luck with, 150 grain, Sierra GK's and, Hornady ELD-X's "Jumped" .060 / .070