Load Development Question .308 - Fliers

[bulletpruf]

Have a Magnetospeed chronograph on the way. Any tips on how to use it for load development? Thanks

 

[L.Sherm]

Have a Magnetospeed chronograph on the way. Any tips on how to use it for load development? Thanks

Don't. Target is all you need.
Can tell you if your E.S is waaaaay out of the park but besides that the target tells the story.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Have a Magnetospeed chronograph on the way. Any tips on how to use it for load development? Thanks

You might want to find a way to mount it so that it's not attached to your barrel. I did that and it helps, but you still get some deflection coming off the bayonet, though I didn't find any really degradation of group size. If you're attaching it to your barrel(s), you can still get some reading as to what load produces better groups than others, but you'll need to have the MagnetoSpeed off the barrel to get a good tune to your load. Just the velocity information alone (the MagnetoSpeed being pretty accurate and consistent) can be helpful in representing how well you're reloading your cartridges or not. The bottom line and true test is always what the target tells you.

 

[DShortt]

I suggested eliminating pieces that were causing fliers. Come up with your own method for doing this.

A 22 is not going to help solve your problem unless you have a 22 and ammo that will shoot tight groups. Easier said than done. If you don’t, you will be seeing fliers caused by inconsistent 22 ammo.

I agree to a point. If you're having bench form problems, that will show up with a 22lr also. And it will teach you about wind. If you're working on your skills, you can shoot a 22lr A LOT for not a lot of money. You won't have good results from bulk boxed ammunition most likely. It doesn't cost a large amount to get better loads though. Doesn't have to be 'top shelf' unless you're already a good shooter.
If you're already shooting very well, then you've advanced beyond this and yes, it's not nearly as beneficial.
Just my thoughts, many ways to work on improving.

 

[Doug Casner]

I was being a little sarcastic about not affording the ammo for the 7mm weatherby but Ive been on elk hunts I couldnt afford 100 bucks a box ammo. Doug

 

[Will Henry]

For the very first time since I started shooting competitively, I've been using a chronograph to verify load consistency, and to see if such variations were reflected on the target. This coincides with me having bought a Garmin Xero. It's so easy to set up (sit it on the bench) and use, it adds no effort to the session. So far, there is no correlation between extreme spread or standard deviation and the impact on the target. The load with the best SD (9fps) is a mediocre performer. Another load with double the SD (19fps) is markedly better on the target, with under 3/4" vertical (this at 300 meters). As Chuck Berry sang, "It goes to show you never can tell". WH

 

[JFrank]

I suggested eliminating pieces that were causing fliers. Come up with your own method for doing this.

A 22 is not going to help solve your problem unless you have a 22 and ammo that will shoot tight groups. Easier said than done. If you don’t, you will be seeing fliers caused by inconsistent 22 ammo.

I would agree with this, ^^
some time back I was torched pretty good for questioning the use of a 22 RM at short for FTR mid and long range practice, my feelings at the time were based on the difference in ballistics and differences in hold overs required along with recoil etc. I just did not feel that it transferred that well , but that’s just me, I regretted opening that can of worms of course.

 

[bulletpruf]

Went back to the 100 meter range today with 10 round of 43.0, the same load where I had the fliers. And, you guessed it, I had another flier, but it's not all bad.

I was shooting 5 shot groups at 100 yards, 80 degrees today, wind variable, but not strong, waiting 5 minutes in between shots, cooling the barrel down with a fan in between shots. Since I was only shooting 10 rounds and leaving, I was not in a rush.

I also changed my setup a bit:

1. I lightened my right hand pressure on the grip, and that made a noticeable difference; less movement when I was squeezing the trigger.

2. Re-set the parallax. It was indeed off a bit; it was set at 150 but it was noticeably better at 125. Thanks to whoever recommended that.

3. Removed the swivel studs front and rear. That was a recommendation that came in a pm. Thanks to you as well.

4. Paid closer attention to where my trigger finger was hitting the trigger, trying to keep my wrist and forearm in line, and trying to follow through on the trigger. Follow through is still something that needs more work.

First group of 5 was .53". Not 1/2 MOA, but pretty damn close. All the shots felt good.





Second group looked a lot better until I pulled the last one. Yes, this was a 5 shot group, so it appears that 3 went into the same hole. There's also a chance that I shot 6 at the first target, but I don't think that I did. And the last shot was a flier, but I 100% pulled that one, so it counts, but I'm going to disregard it for load development.



I'll move on from here to try to find another accuracy node at 44.2, 45.1, 45.4, 45.7, and 46.0. I don't think 45.7 or 46.0 will end up being a node, but I always shoot them last, when I'm rushing a bit and I've been on the range for a few hours, so I want to shoot them when I'm fresh.

Here's a pic of my setup today.

 

[bulletpruf]

Question for the group - if I want to try shooting out to 1,000 yards, I know the 168 GR SMK isn't the best bet, so I purchased some 185 gr Juggernauts.

For folks that shoot long distance, do you typically shoot the same load/projectile regardless of distance, or are you shooting something like the 168 gr SMK at shorter distances and 169 gr SMK, 175 gr SMK, or 185 gr Juggs at longer distances

 

[Lone Hunter]

Just me but I use the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut at all distances. They shoot great and that helps my confidence and I don’t like to have to keep checking zero all the time. My Sierra 175 gr MK’s shoot very close to the same impact as the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut but still not the same.
I’ve seen guys shoot 168 SMK’s out to 600 yds then go to 175 SMK or Juggernaut’s on out to 1000 yds. I like simple…

 

[ELR LVR]

Eliminate the pieces of brass that are giving you fliers.

THIS is very important
Weight sort your brass - after trimming all to same length
Also Eliminate the powder that is giving you fliers

 

[ELR LVR]

Just me but I use the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut at all distances. They shoot great and that helps my confidence and I don’t like to have to keep checking zero all the time. My Sierra 175 gr MK’s shoot very close to the same impact as the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut but still not the same.
I’ve seen guys shoot 168 SMK’s out to 600 yds then go to 175 SMK or Juggernaut’s on out to 1000 yds. I like simple…

I have found the Sierra 175(prefer the TMK vs SMK) to be a better bullet all around than the 168
--------
I had a few friends that wanted me to develop long range accuracy loads for their AR-10 308's
Since it was a large group this meant they all wanted to be able to bulk buy the same bullet
so I tested 155, 168, 175 grn TMK's
---------
They were paying for all components so I offered my expertise for free for the benefit of getting a lot of shooting and load development in, and the challenge to try and develop an accurate load that worked well all rifles, so they could share ammo if needed.
Basically, developing a Match Load for all
I was able to narrow it down to being able to use:
- one primer,
- 2 different powders - Some guns liked 4895, while others liked W-760
Shorter barrels favoring the faster 4895, while longer barrels favoring the slower W-760
- And one Bullet for all (this was for half a dozen different rifles)
Everything from a Sig 716, to a basic AR-10, to a customized 22" Krieger barreled AR-10
(out of 6 guns, it was nice to see the Krieger barreld unit consistently beat them all, which is of course which SHOULD have happened, just nice to see a plan come together.
The Sig 716, was impressive in accuracy for a 16 inch barrel, Shows their quality
----------
Needless to say this took months and a lot of range trips
The 175 TMK, was more consistent at small groups in all rifles tested
The 155 was only beneficial if you wanted more velocity, say out to 600 yds.
If I was shooting only out to 600 yds I would have recommended the 155
However, the 175 TMK dominated past 600 yds, especially at 1000 yds to 1200 yds
----------
Not that the 168 was bad per se, but given the choice between the 168 and 175 ?
why use the 168 when the 175 was the same price and boasted better BC which of course worked out best for long range
----------
I have another friend who I have developed a load for his custom Bolt gun 308
(---Some guys have nice guns but are not very savvy in reloading)
And He also likes the 185 Jugg
However, for his long rang work, I developed a load for this one using Flatline WTC 180 solids
The 180 Solids beat everything mentioned here hands down, in accuracy, velocity
and flatness of trajectory, and can be used in a 1:10 twist barrel
The 185 Jugg's are a nice second choice

 

[gero]

I think the OP could figure this out by clamping the rifle in a mechanical rest and pop 5 rounds off to see if he gets the so called FLYER. I might venture to say that most shooters on here cannot stack 5 rounds in the same hole every time. The biomechanics of shooting are not constants, if they were there would be no reason to have a competition. Shooters who buy the best hand made rifles and load the best handloads still miss.

 

[bulletpruf]

Just me but I use the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut at all distances. They shoot great and that helps my confidence and I don’t like to have to keep checking zero all the time. My Sierra 175 gr MK’s shoot very close to the same impact as the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut but still not the same.
I’ve seen guys shoot 168 SMK’s out to 600 yds then go to 175 SMK or Juggernaut’s on out to 1000 yds. I like simple…

That's what I was hoping to hear - one size fits all.

 

[bulletpruf]

I have found the Sierra 175(prefer the TMK vs SMK) to be a better bullet all around than the 168
--------
I had a few friends that wanted me to develop long range accuracy loads for their AR-10 308's
Since it was a large group this meant they all wanted to be able to bulk buy the same bullet
so I tested 155, 168, 175 grn TMK's
---------
They were paying for all components so I offered my expertise for free for the benefit of getting a lot of shooting and load development in, and the challenge to try and develop an accurate load that worked well all rifles, so they could share ammo if needed.
Basically, developing a Match Load for all
I was able to narrow it down to being able to use:
- one primer,
- 2 different powders - Some guns liked 4895, while others liked W-760
Shorter barrels favoring the faster 4895, while longer barrels favoring the slower W-760
- And one Bullet for all (this was for half a dozen different rifles)
Everything from a Sig 716, to a basic AR-10, to a customized 22" Krieger barreled AR-10
(out of 6 guns, it was nice to see the Krieger barreld unit consistently beat them all, which is of course which SHOULD have happened, just nice to see a plan come together.
The Sig 716, was impressive in accuracy for a 16 inch barrel, Shows their quality
----------
Needless to say this took months and a lot of range trips
The 175 TMK, was more consistent at small groups in all rifles tested
The 155 was only beneficial if you wanted more velocity, say out to 600 yds.
If I was shooting only out to 600 yds I would have recommended the 155
However, the 175 TMK dominated past 600 yds, especially at 1000 yds to 1200 yds
----------
Not that the 168 was bad per se, but given the choice between the 168 and 175 ?
why use the 168 when the 175 was the same price and boasted better BC which of course worked out best for long range
----------
I have another friend who I have developed a load for his custom Bolt gun 308
(---Some guys have nice guns but are not very savvy in reloading)
And He also likes the 185 Jugg
However, for his long rang work, I developed a load for this one using Flatline WTC 180 solids
The 180 Solids beat everything mentioned here hands down, in accuracy, velocity
and flatness of trajectory, and can be used in a 1:10 twist barrel
The 185 Jugg's are a nice second choice

Thanks for the details. I bought the 185 Juggs already, so I'm going to try some of those. Going with new Lapua brass, large primer.

 

[bulletpruf]

I think the OP could figure this out by clamping the rifle in a mechanical rest and pop 5 rounds off to see if he gets the so called FLYER. I might venture to say that most shooters of the shooters on here cannot stack 5 rounds in the same hole every time. The biomechanics of shooting are not constants, if they were there would be no reason to have a competition. Shooters who buy the best hand made rifles and load the best handloads still miss.

Thought about that, but not quite willing to buy the mechanical rest yet, and my groups are getting tighter as I improve my benchrest shooting technique.

Thanks