Light transmission

[Spike A]

I am looking for some input on what brand might offer good light transmission for night hunting over snow at night, i know they say 30mm tubes are not suppose to help any, is that true? .. i was thinking about getting a leupold although i have a nikon buck master that has decent light transmission, how ever which ever i decide to go with i want it to have open adjustments, target turets, which ever you might like to call them. thought i would check to see what you guys thought, i am trying to stay under 5-600 as being christmas season.. also it would be going on a 223. just wondering what your advice is, thanks.

spike

 

[P72]

Usually, I am about the last one to leave the range only because of poor light and deer walking around the target.

My observations:

The size of the exit pupil or objective diameter divided by power is not always a defining factor. My Weaver Grand Slam 1 inch 6-20X40 and Leupold 1 inch 6.5-20X40 VX3 scopes do better at 20 X than one of my other 16X42 30mm scopes in bad light. My guess this is because the Weaver GS's & Leupold have better lens coatings.

When ever I think of night time scopes I see various Zeiss or Schmidt & Bender scopes with 56 or 60 mm objectives and huge maximum power. The big lenses would provide larger exit pupils and extra-ordinary good lens coatings and glass would make for optimum light transmission. I would imagine Euro hunters sitting in stands looking over openings in dark forests (Black Forest?) with huge scopes mounted on funny looking rifles.

A Leupold 6X42 FX3 would have good lens coatings and a 7mm size exit pupil. A adjustable objective version is available that might be considered. For a .223 that would be used for varmints more power might be useful. Going up to a 30mm tube scope would increase reticle image movement latitude. I like my Leupold 4.5-14X40 VX3's for low light situations and with these set on 14X I can barely see .22 holes at 300 yards in the white in good light and when set at 8-10 power they work well in poor light. The 14X max power available should workout well for the .223.

 

[Barrel Nut]

Light gathering capability for ordinary optics is pretty much the same for scopes, binoculars, and camera lenses. A brighter than normal image, especially under low light conditions, is achieved by using high-quality low-loss glass, high quality lens coatings, and BIG pieces of glass. I have a 500mm camera lens which you can hold in the palm of your hand, and another one which also 500mm but it's huge; too large to fit in your home oven for example. The difference is in the largest (smallest numerically) F-stop. That's is how photographers measure the ability to take in light.

Bottom line: When it comes to night hunting with conventional scopes, look for a scope with very large lenses and a terrifying price tag.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Nikon seems to be good in low light with out breaking the bank. I use March for target shooting but for local hunting i would use a Nikon in a minute....

 

[JRS]

Light transmission is a ratio, and is completely independent of the lens diameter. Light transmission and light delivered to the eye are not the same thing. You don't need a baseball size objective lens to transmit light. Scopes do not gather light.

 

[Spike A]

I ended up stumbling onto a Leupold mark 4 .. 4.5-14x50 for what seems to be an amazing price.. last night it was clear out with a good size moon ... enough for shadows .. and I could see everything great... beat all of my other scopes which a couple I have a few hundred more into even ... hopefully going to shoot it today in this cold crappy weather to try it out

 

[Barrel Nut]

.......... snip........... Scopes do not gather light.

Actually, they do. All optics like scopes, binos, camera lenses, etc. gather light and direct it to your eyeball, or in the case of camera lenses the sensor/film plane. Perhaps you're thinking about special "night vision" optics which amplify light. That's a different kettle of fish.

 

[JRS]

Actually, they do. All optics like scopes, binos, camera lenses, etc. gather light and direct it to your eyeball, or in the case of camera lenses the sensor/film plane. Perhaps you're thinking about special "night vision" optics which amplify light. That's a different kettle of fish.

Scopes transmit light, they don't gather light.

 

[AndyA]

Scopes gather all the light that falls on the objective lens and transmit it to your pupil. This is how telescopes work and why they are so big.

 

[JRS]

I am looking for some input on what brand might offer good light transmission for night hunting over snow at night, i know they say 30mm tubes are not suppose to help any, is that true? .. i was thinking about getting a leupold although i have a nikon buck master that has decent light transmission, how ever which ever i decide to go with i want it to have open adjustments, target turets, which ever you might like to call them. thought i would check to see what you guys thought, i am trying to stay under 5-600 as being christmas season.. also it would be going on a 223. just wondering what your advice is, thanks.

spike

I will PM an article from Nightforce for you to read.

 

[Larryh128]

A 30 mm tube is superior to a 1" tube every day in every way but size and weight.

 

[msinc]

I will PM an article from Nightforce for you to read.

I am not familiar with whatever article this is...but Night Force probably ought to read it themselves, that is if it's in regards to low light scope performance. I have a NF SHV with the 56mm objective and I was very disappointed trying to hunt with it when the sun went down.
Many scopes are nice and look good when there is enough light to go around, but when the light starts getting scarce they just don't cut it.....well, it has something to do with that terrible price tag!!!
I agree that you don't necessarily need a 30mm tube...if you have the right glass with the right coatings.
I have always seen or read the figure "99.4%" as being the maximum light transmission possible thru a lens, and that is "per coated lens", it will be less if the lens has no coatings. If this is true then I also agree that scopes don't gather, enhance or amplify light. But a high performance scope will allow your eye to see things better that you otherwise would not. I have a 1" tube Schmidt and Bender and also a Kahles that allow me to hunt well past legal shooting time. Both are fixed power, so they don't have as many lenses as a variable and maybe that is the difference, remember, you lose some transmission with each lens.
All that said, nothing comes close to my Zeiss Diavari 30mm and there are no {as in zero} Jap/USA/Philiipines/Chinese/any other place on the planet that will come close to German optics, hence the "terrible" price tag!!!
The one that does come closest is the Nikon Monarch Gold 30mm. It is the king of the non-German scopes when it comes to low light performance.

 

[Ggmac]

30 mm tubes allow more elevation and windage . Remember it a tube inside a tube .
They can , but most american scopes go for the elevation rather than light transmission.
European scopes of 30 mm use to have the same elevation as American 1" scopes but better light transmission.

 

[rifleman700]

Repeating what P72 said, light transmission has to do with two things - exit pupil and lens coating and nothing else. Your eyes are limited to how large an exit pupil is useful.

Objective lenses are not funnels and do not gather light. They transmit light. Big bulky objectives have very little to do with light transmission. And with larger objective lenses you get the issue of the image being harder to correct and image quality suffers. Two identical scopes with the only difference being objective size - the smaller objective will have better image quality every time.

 

[Spike A]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/optics/optics_st_lenscoatings_200805/

interesting read

 

[JRS]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/optics/optics_st_lenscoatings_200805/

interesting read

Good article

 

[Spike A]

Thinking I might call Leupold to talk to them about what scopes have what coatings... than maybe vortex.. nf... Nikon ... and Sightron ..... I think just for shits and giggles Also be interesting to see how they answer my ?'s compared to each other

 

[Larryh128]

The OP is looking for a hunting scope. A 30MM tube isn't necessary.

I have all hunting rifles and only 1 with a 1" tube that is a light weight rig. Everything else wears a 30mm tube , better light in, better field of view only down side is slightly more weight & bulk. If you are not running around the mountain tops, it's not an issue. Guys are always surprised when they look thru a 30mm tube & then back thru their 1" tube. I will never go back.

 

[JRS]

I have all hunting rifles and only 1 with a 1" tube that is a light weight rig. Everything else wears a 30mm tube , better light in, better field of view only down side is slightly more weight & bulk. If you are not running around the mountain tops, it's not an issue. Guys are always surprised when they look thru a 30mm tube & then back thru their 1" tube. I will never go back.

Advantages of a 30MM tube:

Wall thickness can be increased for strength and durability. (Nightforce)
Manufacturers can keep the internal lenses the same size as those in their 1-inch scopes, and use the extra internal room for additional reticle adjustment.

Exit pupil produces the same numbers whether the main tube is 30MM or 1-inch. A 30MM main tube isn't inherently brighter than a 1-inch tube because both carry internal lenses larger than 7MM, so there is minimal loss of light through either one. A quality scope with a 30MM tube is brighter than a cheaply made scope with a 1-inch tube. A quality scope with a 1-inch tube is brighter than a cheaply made scope with a 30MM tube. The biggest advantage is the additional internal adjustment. For a long range target shooter, that internal adjustment is a big deal. For the average hunter, the additional internal adjustment isn't necessary, and adds weight and additional cost to the scope. Field of view is a product of magnification, not tube diameter.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Scope manufacturers state that the 30mm tube has nothing to do with light transmission. You can find articles on this straight from Swarovski. The only advantage a 30mm tube offers is more elevation and windage adjustment as it allows more room for movement.

But either way, 30mm tube or big objective, none of matters if you don't have quality glass and coatings. I had a set if Vortex Razor HD 10x50mm binoculars that I replaced with a set of Meopta Meostar HD 10x32 binoculars. Though the Razors had a solid 18mm objective advantage, they just BARELY could outlast the Meopta glass with only a 32mm objective. The Razors only worked well in low light maybe a minute or two longer if that. They barely kept up with the smaller Meoptas and the whole time Meopta kept a much sharper image with better color rendition. Just goes to show the superiority of top quality European glass and coatings. Now you put that same Meopta HD glass in a 50mm objective binocular and the Vortex Razor HD glass couldn't even dream of competing with it in low light.