I’d dive in here, but . . ..
Letter from Todd Kindler to NAMMO/Lapua/Berger re:discontinued bullets
- Thread starter Gundog
- Start date
Well, I’ve been through some of these discontinuance issues from makers, mostly other than Berger.
I’d love to get some Hornady 45ACP 200 gr JSWC C/T bullets. They shot very well in my Bullseye pistol. They’ve been “suspended” for more than 5 years now.
How many months back were people clamoring for Berger 105gr 6mm? Bullets in the classifieds didn't last very long. But we have to suspend 6mm production which people are screaming for to produce 20 cal bullets for a few shooters?
A few years ago I needed to get a continuing supply of 38 Special 148 gr WC ammunition. I couldn’t reload for my 52 and all I could get was S&B or Magtech very sporadically. Everybody and their dog was loading 38 Spec in 130 grain FMJ but even Speer and Federal weren’t loading LWC.
I also remember when Remchester brass and bullets were available for every caliber they made at places like Midway, Wideners and MidSouth.
The point is markets change, and shooters and reloader also change. If you need something that is “esoteric” in nature, you’d better keep a supply.
I’d love to get some Hornady 45ACP 200 gr JSWC C/T bullets. They shot very well in my Bullseye pistol. They’ve been “suspended” for more than 5 years now.
How many months back were people clamoring for Berger 105gr 6mm? Bullets in the classifieds didn't last very long. But we have to suspend 6mm production which people are screaming for to produce 20 cal bullets for a few shooters?
A few years ago I needed to get a continuing supply of 38 Special 148 gr WC ammunition. I couldn’t reload for my 52 and all I could get was S&B or Magtech very sporadically. Everybody and their dog was loading 38 Spec in 130 grain FMJ but even Speer and Federal weren’t loading LWC.
I also remember when Remchester brass and bullets were available for every caliber they made at places like Midway, Wideners and MidSouth.
The point is markets change, and shooters and reloader also change. If you need something that is “esoteric” in nature, you’d better keep a supply.
Oh, I'm pretty sure they aren't "losing" money. But the fact is, they aren't in business as a public service. They are in it to make a profit. Currently, their machinery is clearly doing all it can do as they are eliminating other jackets and bullets that are not selling enough to justify the machine time and set up costs. I have a good friend who makes custom bullets. he gets J4 jackets from Berger. He has to put in for a very significant number and order them months in advance. He recently had to make a decision to eliminate one of the bullets he has been making since it wasn't worth the outlay to justify the shelf time for these bullets. I'm sure for Berger as with my friend, it is a business decision. They clearly don't need a loss leader as they are selling everything they can produce as it is.
This might be an opportunity for someone to jump into the jacket/bullet manufacturing market. But if Berger can't figure a way to do it and turn a profit it might be difficult for a newby. Berger isn't the only jacket maker in the field. A little research might give a person an idea. Who knows what might come of it. I am surprised the Mr Kindler is taking the approach he has chosen. He knows what is involved in making bullets and he stopped doing it years ago. It's not personal folks, it's just good business.
Rick
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
When I first posted and broke the news of Berger discontinuing the 55gr 20 cal bullet I said then, I understand why they would and how this particular bullet is very likely one of, if not, their least popular, with regard to actual sales numbers, of just about any bullet in Berger's line up.
Let's face it, this bullet takes a specific build using a barrel twist faster than you would use for anything else, just to shoot these things and there just isn't enough of use with specialty 20 cal builds using 8 or 9 twist barrels to sustain the market.
When I had my 20-250 built I used a 8tw Krieger and I knew before it was ever put together I'd likely only be able to shoot the Berger 55's because there's a good chance the lighter bullets may not survive the RPM's, but I went ahead and built it anyway. Granted, when I started my 20-250 build I never gave any thought to the possibility Berger would ever discontinue the one single bullet I had my gun built around, but even now that they have, I don't fault them for doing so. Sure, it sucks, especially considering I bought two 8tw 20 cal barrels before I started my build, but I get it and understand they're running a business to make money first, and satisfy the shooting world second.
It's kind of funny, a long time ago when I had my very first wildcat built, I recall a conversation I had with the gunsmith doing my build about how I should never build a gun around one specific bullet. Ahh, I never really was very good at listening.
Let's face it, this bullet takes a specific build using a barrel twist faster than you would use for anything else, just to shoot these things and there just isn't enough of use with specialty 20 cal builds using 8 or 9 twist barrels to sustain the market.
When I had my 20-250 built I used a 8tw Krieger and I knew before it was ever put together I'd likely only be able to shoot the Berger 55's because there's a good chance the lighter bullets may not survive the RPM's, but I went ahead and built it anyway. Granted, when I started my 20-250 build I never gave any thought to the possibility Berger would ever discontinue the one single bullet I had my gun built around, but even now that they have, I don't fault them for doing so. Sure, it sucks, especially considering I bought two 8tw 20 cal barrels before I started my build, but I get it and understand they're running a business to make money first, and satisfy the shooting world second.
It's kind of funny, a long time ago when I had my very first wildcat built, I recall a conversation I had with the gunsmith doing my build about how I should never build a gun around one specific bullet. Ahh, I never really was very good at listening.
17VLD
Gold $$ Contributor
The second 20 caliber I built was a 20 BR when the twelve twist was a new offering,my first 20 caliber was a 13 twist built around the 33 V-Max which I still use for coyotes today.Getting back to the 22lb Nesika J 20 BR ,when the VHA was still around I decided to try for the 500 yard club with my 20 BR,I chose the then new 39 Blitz King,I had a run of 3 or 4 pd’s at around 500 yards,when I walked out with a witness to check and verify,we were very pleased to find a dead dog at 521 yards.The point of all this rambling is that things change and we adapt,I have since killed pd’s well beyond the ones that got me in the now defunct VHA’s 500 yard club with 32 grain bullets and the 20VT.But I still wish for the big guys to make a 48-50 grain poly tipped bullet,Kevin I take your post as a ray of sunshine and would be pleased to get a thousand yard dog with a Sierra one day.I understand the difficulties of bringing out specialized small caliber bullets,but I would think that whoever comes to market with a new heavier 20 cal bullet would reap the reward of a hungry market.I have plenty of bullets that will outlast me,but that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t buy lots more.
Matt
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Chicken! LOL
7315br
Silver $$ Contributor
I'll throw my $.02 into this discussion. Years ago when Berger discontinued the 50 gr 20 cal bullet...it was a wake-up call for me. I've been buying the 55 gr Berger 20 cal ever since when I could buy them at a reasonable price...except when B23 came-out with that bullet being discontinued! That kicked me into gear, and I bought the rest of the 55 Bergers I thought I'd need for two long range 20's and four extra 9-twist and 10-twist barrels. I would venture to guess most people don't shoot the 55 gr Berger 20 cal bullet very much...mostly long range coyote shooters and a few extreme guys (nuts...LOL!) as myself who shoot them at long range on Sage Rats and PD's. My point is that even if custom bullet makers such as Blackhole bullets charge $45/100 or more...how many of those bullets does one really shoot in a year? I shoot about (600) of the Berger 55's a year in my 20 BR and 20-250. To me not all is lost if Berger never makes those bullets again. There is some really good custom makers out there for those bullets. The problem is J4 jackets. That is a potential problem. Most custom bullet makers won't or can't invest in a minimum 10,000 jackets (or more), and then set on the investment until they sell them off over a extended period of time. Soooo...if the heavy 20 cal bullet market dries up, then what happens to the 8-twist and even the 9-twist custom barrel manufacturers?? Just food for thought. It "don't" look good to me and I really hate to say that. 7315br
Okay, but only so far as to say this isn’t a Nammo/Lapua issue as it is a Berger issue. Nammo really exerts fairly little control over Berger’s business decisions like this, so it should be taken up with Berger directly. Nammo purchased Berger as a highly successful, independent company, and adhered to the philosophy of “ if it works, don’t fix it!” Berger worked, they turned out truly fine bullets, and they knew their market. What’s to “fix” here? If Berger made the decision to drop these bullets, it was almost certainly from their own marketing experience. My guess would be, they weren’t pulling their own weight in the sales figures, and were simply not turning a profit. Nothing to get sentimental about, from a business standpoint. I’d make the appeal directly to Berger, and see if they might reconsider.
dakor
Silver $$ Contributor
I do not own any 20 cals but for the people that do it might be worth asking Sierra, Hornady or Nosler to make something in that weight. I know it would not be that same bullet but with all the bullet makers competing for having the best you may end up with something as good or better.
I do.
17tbs You forgot to check the DATE on the previous post! been there done that, join the club.
Frank
Frank
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.