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Letter from Todd Kindler to NAMMO/Lapua/Berger re:discontinued bullets

Gundog


I received permission, from Todd, to post this letter he sent to the powers that be at NAMMO/Lapua/Berger.
I'm sure a few others here have done the same.
I have also written a letter, which I'm tweeking now.
If you have the time and or inclination, I would suggest you do also. Will it do any good?
Maybe, maybe not, but at lease they will know how we feel they are abandoning the small caliber shooter.


From: "Todd Kindler"
Date: January 30, 2019 at 10:41:53 AM EST
To: <info@nammo.com>, "'Seikkula, Erkki'" <Erkki.Seikkula@nammo.com>
Subject: Berger Bullets Small Caliber Direction



Dear Morten Brandzaeg and Raimo Helasmaki,


It has just came to my attention that Berger Bullets has unfortunately discontinued their 55 grain 20 caliber PN 20306. This is just another of many fine small caliber bullets they have discontinued over the years. Please let me provide you a little background on this superb 55 grain bullet. Legendary tool & die maker, precision bullet die maker and benchrest shooter, Bob Simonson, designed this bullet and many others over the decades as well that benefit the precision benchrest and shooting industry today. Years ago, Bob sent me samples of this bullet to evaluate and test. I spent an entire summer testing different barrel twists (that were donated by Douglas Barrels more below ) and shooting at various long ranges using downrange chronographs. Once I had all my data, I sent it off to a professional ballistics lab at my own expense to figure the BC and charts. I then met with Walt at the Shot Show and gave him the experimental bullets and ballistic charts and asked if he would consider making them, which they eventually did. This is a very special bullet with 1000 yard accuracy range. I then did the marketing of this bullet and many of Berger’s other small caliber bullets as well through our Small Caliber News Magazine and our Terrific Twenty Reloading Manual - by the way we are on our 5th edition! The bullet was quickly and successfully launched with many shooters using it in 1000 yard benchrest and varmint shooting!


These precision shooters have invested a lot of hard earned money in barrels and rifles to shoot this bullet. In fact, Tim Gardner, owner of Douglas Barrels graciously donated all the test barrels to me and Berger. Tim also had me set him up with bullet making dies to make his own 55 grain bullets using Berger jackets. This precision set up cost a lot of money and helped Tim win many 1000 yard awards! These achievements really helped the Berger and twenty caliber brand. Now we have many shooters with rifles and bullet dies that can’t be used and the finest long range small caliber bullet a thing of the past! I don’t really think Lapua or Berger realize the negative impact leaving this market with cause by slowly leaving the small caliber market.


I’m asking you to please bring the 55 grain bullet and jackets back. In my opinion, the Berger Team could definitely use some assistance in evaluating and marketing the small caliber market. Maybe they are just too removed from it. I would be glad to help revive that small caliber market. I know and understand that market better than anyone on the planet! I have spent over three decades of my life totally dedicated to the small calibers. In fact, when Lapua introduced their fine 221 Remington Fireball brass, your press release stated you can even make 20 Vartarg brass with it, the very first cartridge I ever designed!


There is significant opportunity here that I don’t want to see you walk away from for the sake of the small caliber shooters and industry. Remember the small calibers are what we grow up with and can shoot all year long – no matter where you live.


Sincerely,


Todd


Todd A. Kindler – President, Founder of Small Caliber News Magazine, & Cartridge designer (20 VarTarg, 20 Tactical, 17 Tactical to name a few)

The Woodchuck Den, Inc.

330-897-0614

www.woodchuckden.com







 
They don’t want to make those bullets and frankly it’s not that big of deal if they don’t. What is a big deal is that they won’t produce the jackets so that the custom bullet makers can produce what the small caliber shooters want and need. Those custom bullets exceed the quality, and availability if the jackets were produced, of Berger bullets.
 
Seems simple to me. If they sold enough bullets or jackets to turn a profit that would justify the time and tooling then they would keep making them. Berger has made several decisions of late that are going to put some pressure on custom bullet makers. So, there may be an opportunity out there for someone willing to spend some $$ on jacket making. Berger isn't in business to do charity work. They have to turn a profit or they won't be around. In the real world that's the way things work. Mr. Kindler should know that.

Rick
 
Good, well thought out letter but those bullets are a miniscule market. I can't speak for anyone else but if I want to shoot those bullet weights, I use a .22 center fire of some stripe.
 
I really like the Berger 20cal 55gr and hope Todd gets an audience from Nammo. What is the next best bullet alternative for a 20BR 1-8 twist? Fortunately, I have a few thousand 55's stocked up, unfortunately I have 6 unchambered Bartlein 20 cal 1-8 barrels on the self and likely no more bullets.
 
Greyfox said:
Seems simple to me. If they sold enough bullets or jackets to turn a profit that would justify the time and tooling then they would keep making them. Berger has made several decisions of late that are going to put some pressure on custom bullet makers. So, there may be an opportunity out there for someone willing to spend some $$ on jacket making. Berger isn't in business to do charity work. They have to turn a profit or they won't be around. In the real world that's the way things work. Mr. Kindler should know that.

Rick
Click to expand...
If they are losing money, there is such a thing in business called a loss leader. To garner the good will of shooters of these subcalibers, the Nammo group would be wise to reconsider. I"m sure a lot of the peoplethat shoot .20 also shoot larger calibers, and may think twice about developing a load with a brand that has cut them off before. BTW, Todd, Love the vartarg, it is a great little brother to my 204R.
 
After having stepped into the small caliber pool I have found it to be a larger community than most think.
I have several K of Berger's 17’s and 20’s. I also have other calibers they made, as in pastense. I didn’t notice they had dropped some of the others I used because I always bought in large quantities.
They are not the only ones that have dropped bullets. Most of the frustration is from not getting a heads up on the being dropped.

And, as mentioned above there are folks unloading a lot of their “other” calibers made by Berger.

I am but a small fish in a big pond any more. But I will send a respectable email to them as well.
 
I know nothing about what it takes to make bullets, but if they have the tooling, why can't they offer them up once a year or something along those lines? They don't have to be in production all the time, but couldn't they do special runs once they have the backorders to support such a thing?
 
If Berger makes bad business decisions like Remington did for years, we could end up with a decline in quality or no more Bergers.
Steve Bair
 
It's been big business at Berger for quite awhile now. Just my opinion but now that Nammo owns them the small production items are in greater jeopardy. The military has picked their 6.5 bullet for the next Gen caliber. If I was Nammo would I stop a 5 million piece run to make 50,000? Maybe in time as production capacity increases at the new facility we get more support but by then we will have all moved on.
Bart would be the guy to talk to about jackets. Start up costs would have to dealt with but it's an option.
 
I recently wrote them asking about a run of the old 7.62 (.311) 123gr Mega bullet for the 7.62x39 market as I thought that would be a perfect bullet for the Howa Mini's and CZ's in that caliber and there might be new-found demand in that arena... Even offered to buy a complete run and sell them myself....they weren't interested.
 
Todd is the reason I first built my 17Mach 1V and why I also got into all the 20’s too.His logic about small calibers always made sense to me and frankly I never understood how Berger would drop some of their best offerings.I realize lots of 6.5 shooters are probably driving the market now but small calibers have their place too.Like others said perhaps a run once a year could satisfy all of us.I love what Walt and Todd and others have accomplished in the past,I guess nothing lasts forever.Hornady has always supported small caliber shooters in the past too,I will continue to buy their products for my needs and perhaps in light of Berger’s foolish move Hornady will produce a 20 cal 48-50 grain V-Max to work in all the 9 twist rifles and XP’s out there.
Matt
 
Several months ago I called Berger to order a few thousand jackets. I was told I could order and pay now for delivery in November 2019. And the rep seemed to have an attitude . . . In the meantime I found what I was looking for elsewhere by another manufacturer. Since Nammo has taken over at Berger it seems not to be the customer-friendly business it was, at least in my case.
 
For what it's worth..
My letter to NAMMO, Berger


From: Gundog
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 11:13 AM
To: Raimo.Helasmaki@nammo.com ; Erkki.Seikkula@nammo.com ; Markku.Kortesoja@nammo.com ; morten.brandtzaeg@nammo.com ; GEsterline@CapstonePG.com
Subject: Small Caliber bullet decisions

Dear Sirs,
A few weeks ago I learned that the 55 Grain 20 caliber was being discontinued.
I began to think back to all the bullets that Berger used to make for the small caliber shooter. I then pulled out my first edition Berger Reloading Manual and a letter fell out.
It was from Walt Berger, giving me advice and direction on how to load the 30 grain 17 caliber bullets (both flat base and boat tail) in the 17 Remington Fireball.
He also wrote that there were two other Berger bullets that he suggested that I try. They were the 25 grain 17 caliber Target bullet and the 25 grain 17 caliber Varmint bullet.
Sadly both of the 30 grain bullets and the 25 grain Target bullets have been discontinued. They were exceptional shooting bullets.
I paged into the 20 caliber bullet data and found the load data for various rounds using 30 grain, 50 grain and 55 grain bullets. Again no longer made.
I have built several rifles specifically for the 50 and 55 grain. I found that the 55 grain in the 20 Titan, a Wild Cat Cartridge based on the 6.5 Grendel case and developed by Todd Kindler,
was deadly accurate. Four Prairie Dogs, on the same mound, fell silent at excess of 1200 yards. I have surpassed that distance with other rifles but of a larger caliber. My shooting
compatriots still talk of that four shot day using a 20 caliber bullet.
I have called several of the “boutique” small caliber bullet makers to see if they could make those bullets. I learned another disturbing fact.
When a bullet is discontinued by Berger, the J-4 Jackets, (arguably the best), used to make those bullets are either discontinued or the amounts required to place
an order are so extreme, that small manufacturers are basically out of business too.
Fortunately, I have the ability to re-barrel those guns when my bullet supply is gone, but that cartridge/bullet combination and others will become only a memory.

The “talk” on the small caliber shooting forums, has not been favorable about Berger. There is discussion of not only boycotting Berger, but also Lapua and Vihtavuori.
This decision, I’m sure, was a financial one on the part of your businesses.
Granted the “small caliber” shooters are a small part of your business, but looking back in not too distant past, it was a part that you were invested in.
I have been a part of the Shooting Industry and have seen how certain decisions can have a detrimental affect on that business.
To forget your roots in favor of the new shiny thing, (PRC and LRS),may be the new way to do business but it doesn’t make it right....
It’s hard to “Shoot the Best” when they are no longer available.

Enough of my rant.
Greg
Small Caliber Guns and number I’ve built and own
17 Ackley Bee(1), 17 Tactical (3), 17-223 (1), 20 Vartarg (4), 20-221(1), 20 Tactical(3). 20 Practical(2), 20 Titan(2), 204 Ruger (4)
 
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