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Lee Shell Holders

I am using the Lee Shell Holder #5 (300 WM). I've always understood / believed that a shell holder is a shell holder is a shell holder. I'm beginning to doubt that.

Equipment:
Redding Big Boss II utilizing the Hornady Bushing Converter so I can use Hornady Quick Change Bushings.

Redding FL Sizing Die for 300 WM (not that it matters, but I am using a 30 caliber carbide sizing button) with a Lee Shell Holder #5 (300 WM).

My issue: I have the die run all the way down and I'm not touching the shoulders at all. This is on new but pulled FC 13 300 WM brass. I want to get a good starting point prior to neck turning JUST to clean up the necks.

Is it possible the Lee shell holder is too low to allow me to set the FL sizing die up correctly?
 
Belted brass that’s never been fired when stopped by the belt from being shoved any further forward in the chamber can leave the case’s shoulder still short of ever reaching the chamber’s shoulder. If a fire forming of that brass to the full bolt face to shoulder datum length of that chamber leaves it still too short to be shoulder bumped using that die turned in to contact that shell holder, then it’ll be the kind of problem that needs fixing.

Thinkin’ Lee has one batch of shell holders for use only with dies and then another batch of shell holders that are different in some way and to be used only with their hand held priming tool, make sure of what you got.
 
If the die was adjusted per the instructions and contacting the shell holder during setup adjustment, that leaves two possibilities.

The decapping rod is hitting the web of the case preventing it from going lower.

The recess in the die for the cases belt is not deep enough and is preventing the die from contacting the shell holder.
 
Based on responses from other forums, it is possible this brass is short and needs fire forming. I have ordered a Redding shell holder to see if that is possibly an issue.

I am trying to prep the brass as best as I can before the rifle gets here (3 weeks) so I don't have fire formed brass.

If short, I'll hold off neck turning till they are fire formed.
 
One thing to keep in mind is when you thread a die into a press utilizing a bushing converter, you have added another level of threads in the system. What happens is none of the threads on the die, on the press, and on the converter is without a tiny bit of space between them. If it was that perfect, you would have a hard time threading one thing into another. The problem with all this slop is when you do a sizing operation; you can put a lot of pressure on the threads. When this happens, they will move and in the end even though you adjusted it by initially contacting the shell holder, there is now a gap between it and the die due to the slop.

Try turning the die down ¼ of a turn and see if the gap still exists.
 
capreppy said:
I am using the Lee Shell Holder #5 (300 WM). I've always understood / believed that a shell holder is a shell holder is a shell holder. I'm beginning to doubt that.

Equipment:
Redding Big Boss II utilizing the Hornady Bushing Converter so I can use Hornady Quick Change Bushings.

Redding FL Sizing Die for 300 WM (not that it matters, but I am using a 30 caliber carbide sizing button) with a Lee Shell Holder #5 (300 WM).

My issue: I have the die run all the way down and I'm not touching the shoulders at all. This is on new but pulled FC 13 300 WM brass. I want to get a good starting point prior to neck turning JUST to clean up the necks.

Is it possible the Lee shell holder is too low to allow me to set the FL sizing die up correctly?

amlevin said:
I wouldn't come to any conclusions until the brass has been fired at least once in YOUR rifle.

What amlevin said...

The factiry cases for belted Magnums are set to headspace on the belt, NOT the shoulder. Because of that, it is common for the shoulder to be a bit shorter.

Anyone that shoots belted magnums is used to this.

You fire the case and let the shoulder blow forward, THEN you set the die to just kiss the shoulder.

Once fired, dies for belted magnums are normaly set to headspace on the shoulder, like "regular" cases.
 
The only thing you have to worry about is how much head clearance or "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face the new cases have. Meaning "how far" case these cases stretch when fired for the first time. The shoulder location of the new case does not matter on a rimmed or belted case, and after the first firing you can then let the case headspace on the shoulder.

Below a new rimmed case on the left and a fired case on the right.

cases303_zps52504629.jpg


Below the rim of the case is holding the case from dropping further into the Wilson case gauge.

short_zps78ac9e38.jpg


I will tell you what a British forum member told me once in another forum.

"Shoot the bloody thing first".

NOTE: After posting the above information I see that CatShooter does not have two dyslexic typing fingers and posted first. "BUT" as usual CatShooter didn't post any extremely informative and beautiful photos that takes much longer to post.
And the Japanese have a name for people like CatShooter.................A big Plick. :o

typingdeath_zps1a95d266.gif
 
bigedp51 said:
The only thing you have to worry about is how much head clearance or "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face the new cases have. Meaning "how far" case these cases stretch when fired for the first time. The shoulder location of the new case does not matter on a rimmed or belted case, and after the first firing you can then let the case headspace on the shoulder.

Below a new rimmed case on the left and a fired case on the right.

cases303_zps52504629.jpg


Below the rim of the case is holding the case from dropping further into the Wilson case gauge.

short_zps78ac9e38.jpg


I will tell you what a British forum member told me once in another forum.

"Shoot the bloody thing first".

NOTE: After posting the above information I see that CatShooter does not have two dyslexic typing fingers and posted first. "BUT" as usual CatShooter didn't post any extremely informative and beautiful photos that takes much longer to post.
And the Japanese have a name for people like CatShooter.................A big Plick. :o

typingdeath_zps1a95d266.gif

Thank you for the pics. I've never owned a belted magnum before so a lot of this IS very new to me. I've been reloading a few years both pistol and rifle, but I've ways wanted a magnum and obviously still have some to learn with this new cartridge.

The rifle will be here in a couple of weeks and I'll get these cases fired.

That being said, I have a follow up question then. How does one do load development if the shoulder isn't completely fire formed? There will obviously be an increase in case capacity so am very interested in how that affects pressures (should lower), but also accuracy.
 
The belted case was first used by the British firm of Holland and Holland at a time when cartridge manufacturing left a lot to be desired. Since it was a British design cordite powder would have been used and this required the spaghetti shaped cordite powder being inserted into the case "BEFORE" the shoulder and neck of the case was formed.

beltedcordite_zpsb5877c0b.jpg


If you would have studied more modern cartridge designs you would have found out about Jack O'Conner and the .270 Winchester cartridge. And the fact that the .270 Winchester was the best non-belted magnum in the world. ::)

But since your stuck with the antiquated belted cartridge design your going to have learn to let the case headspaces on the shoulder and "NOT" the belt.

Headspace_2_lg_zps3fea821e.jpg

Headspace_1_lg_zpsdd7501b6.jpg


So again your only problem will be head clearance on new cases, and controlling shoulder bump on your fired cases. So don't let your case stretch above the belt on the first firing and do not push the shoulder of the case too far back when resting.

HEADCLEARANCE-a_zps1a9a1011.jpg


If you seat your bullets long and jam them into the rifling this will hold the case against the bolt face when fireforming the cases with a upper medium load. And if anyone tells you to lube your cases to fireform them just remember these people are escapees from insane asylums and have mental health issues. ;)
 
Thank you for the additional information.

So another reloading question then. Is it better to buy once fired brass as the shoulder would have been formed appropriately? Obviously formed based on the chamber of the rifle that fired it, but at least it has been fire formed.
 
bigedp51 said:
NOTE: After posting the above information I see that CatShooter does not have two dyslexic typing fingers and posted first. "BUT" as usual CatShooter didn't post any extremely informative and beautiful photos that takes much longer to post.


I would have posted a bunch of SUPER DUPER GREAT photos, but then Edwardus Maximus would have realized that I stole them all from him, and he would have sued me ;) ;) ;)


bigedp51 said:
And the Japanese have a name for people like CatShooter...

typingdeath_zps1a95d266.gif

Nonsence... THIS is why the Japanese have a bounty of 3,974,384,725,916,287 yen on my head!

I dropped a dime on the local "Wang's take out"!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOy2QCssTaI


capreppy said:
That being said, I have a follow up question then. How does one do load development if the shoulder isn't completely fire formed? There will obviously be an increase in case capacity so am very interested in how that affects pressures (should lower), but also accuracy.

It is not a concern - the case expands to fill the chamber almost instantly, so the load devleopment is not affected, and totally valid.


capreppy said:
Thank you for the additional information.

So another reloading question then. Is it better to buy once fired brass as the shoulder would have been formed appropriately? Obviously formed based on the chamber of the rifle that fired it, but at least it has been fire formed.

If you buy once fired cases, you still need to fire them in your chamber - don't worry, this is nothing...

Shoot it and be happy. :) :) :)
 
I am pretty anxious to have this rifle in hand. It's been a year in the works and have a crap ton of components to have a good time with it.

As these are pulls, I'll neck size them for now. I can load my OCW rounds in just a few short weeks.
 
A shell holder has a deck height. My shell holders have a deck height of .125". I have Lee shell holders, all of my Lee shell holders have a deck height of .125" I do match die brands to shell holder brands.

F. Guffey
 
fguffey said:
A shell holder has a deck height. My shell holders have a deck height of .125". I have Lee shell holders, all of my Lee shell holders have a deck height of .125" I do match die brands to shell holder brands.

F. Guffey

Unless you are talking Redding Competition Shell Holders, all companies use the same design standard for "deck height". The Redding Comp shellholders just come in increments of .002" additional deck height for those that want to adjust shoulder bump using the shell holders rather than literally "screwing " with die adjustment.

I find more variations in brass and their extractor groove/rims than I have in shell holder dimensions.
 
Oh No! not this "deck height" business again. Google the term and through 45 pages- not one reference to reloading. Google "shell holder deck height" and voila ( a French word meaning "lookie here" pronounced wall-ah) there it is in all it's glory and all references to the term are put forth by the distinguished Mr. Guffy our resident wordsmith.
 
LHSmith said:
Oh No! not this "deck height" business again. Google the term and through 45 pages- not one reference to reloading. Google "shell holder deck height" and voila ( a French word meaning "lookie here" pronounced wall-ah) there it is in all it's glory and all references to the term are put forth by the distinguished Mr. Guffy our resident wordsmith.

If you measure from the bottom of the shell holder resting on the ram to the doohickey the case rests on it would be the deck height. It is a very common term used in many areas and just because it isn't seen in any reloading manuals doesn't mean the term does not apply to a shell holder. And fguffey is not the only one using the term "deck height" and all your posting proves is your lack of knowledge of machinist terms, naval terms etc..

Now drop down on the deck and give the forum 50 pushups. ::)

deck%20hight_zpsnzxz4pxg.jpg
 

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