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Large sampling

Opinions abound on the net. Everyone seems to have the "secret sauce" although I think Sponge Bob is fairly protective of it. ;)

The idea is to obtain a load combination that produces consistent results that meets your needs. How you get there is not important as long as you get there. There are multiple ways to approach load development, i.e., 3 shot, 4 shot, 5 shot etc., group testing, round robin testing, monitoring velocity spread, ladder testing to find accuracy nodes, etc.

If you have a process that works, then I don't know why you would need to change it, especially if the change involves the consumption of additional components given today environment. I never found load development to a mystical process but rather straight forward.
 
From the article:

I did not experiment with changes in seating depth in this test. One of the things that Neville and Quinlan observed in their testing was that changes in seating depth, like charge weight, didn’t result in any meaningful changes in accuracy. I used to experiment with seating depth and load bullets as long as they’d fit in the magazine, but a couple years back, I started loading everything to the cartridge overall length that the reloading data suggested. I have noticed no difference in accuracy. An easy proof of this would be to shoot a 30 shot sample at your “ideal” seating depth and another at a different seating depth (at least a .030-inch change). They will look different with 3-, 5-, or 10-shot samples, but will that hold up with 30?

Welp. That tells you something about this author.

I did enjoy reading the article. Thank you for posting it. I agree with almost nothing in it. The whole premise is a 30-shot sample as a way to prove if our rifles are really accurate or not.

My rifle sucks at being a pry bar, canoe oar, and fence post. I do not use it for any of those applications. And I wont be using it for 30-shot groups either.
 
I think he may have a point, although I think he's simply agreeing with the point of two Hornady guys. The less precise the rifle and the less accurate a shooter, the more valuable a larger data sample would be in forming a conclusion. After all the rifles he selected are not precision rifles.

I do wonder about his one statement. Perhaps I should reread the article, but if I am correct he shot 600 rounds in two days of testing and stated none were fliers or that any he had pulled. If I am correct and that is what he said, I simply cannot buy it.
 
Over the past 3 years I have shot a few hundred (1500+) 223 rounds for use in a local league. Have to say the choice of the Hornady 68gr Match bullet would have been my last choice. Though I will agree that trying to find a velocity node in the 223 is very trying. To the point I put the Chrono in the closet.
 

Eagle Six SAID​

I do wonder about his one statement. Perhaps I should reread the article, but if I am correct he shot 600 rounds in two days of testing and stated none were fliers or that any he had pulled. If I am correct and that is what he said, I simply cannot buy it.

Thinking about this test, Hornady's test and then of course test performed by the likes of Erik Cortina and Jack Neary and many other champion shooters I think it all boils down to whatever method one uses to find the most precise and accurate combination is correct for that shooter and set-up. The conditions and the shooter both play a roll in ANY TEST. It is NOT simply a rifle/load combination and/or how many shots were fired. Eagle Six is correct.
 
There was a thread not long ago discussing load development and a whole pyramid of comments relating to what is needed to find the perfect load. From the gun to components selected to weather conditions to it seemed the day and time. Yet once I tried interjecting the operator and whatever faults and flaws they may input into it I was blasted for it. Yet not one person I know shoots load development using a fixed mechanical machine rest.

So not only do I have to evaluate the gun but also the load I am working on and any mistakes I might have instilled.
 
Slow day in the office, so maybe this will ruffle some feathers!

I'm not a statistician, but have done enough with statistics and worked with many statistician I feel confident saying they roll their eyes when we shoot 2, 3, 4, 5 shot groups and even when we shoot the same 5 shot group load 3-4 times over, at any distance, as the data set is too small to make meaningful conclusions.

With that said, I would be the last to argue with the results of the likes of Erik Cortina and Jack Neary and other accomplished shooters who know how to quickly develop loads. Results trump calculations.

I will argue with those that say something like, "larger data sets are not necessary", although how large is large would also be in the discussion. Are their any shooters who develop a load for a new rifle or new barrel, use 3 round groups, select the 3 round group that bug holes, say they got it, then put the rifle back and never shoot it again? If there are any, I would think not many and not the norm. Instead, we go out and shoot the snot out of that combination and when we do, we are in fact shooting a larger data set.

I still wonder how the author, Mr. Freel, of the article thought he was selecting a good sample of rifles for the test. For example the Remington 710 30-06. This is not to gig at the M710 I'm sure they are fine rifles, but surely Mr. Freel's 710 isn't in the precision rifle category. 3" groups with handloads I would consider marginal for hunting even larger game, although that may be close to typical results with that rifle, and component combination. My point being, I have never known a hunter, hunting with a 30-06 that will sit down at the bench and blast off a group of 30 rounds of a specific load. Typically what I have seen is 3-4 3 round groups, select the best, shoot another 3-7 to zero and go bag their deer. And that would be a lot of shooting for most. Next season, 1-3 rounds on a pie plate to confirm zero and go bag their deer! Maybe I haven't known that many shooter, but I've been shooting over 60 years and seen all kinds, but I could be wrong!

As for powder charge and seating depth isn't that important, from reading the article, the test procedures, the rifles, the loads and conclusion I understand why they are not important to Mr. Freel. But he sure does burn a lot of powder and bullets to not prove a point.

And finally, I sure would be interested in watching his bench shooting techniques during his testing!!
 
I have the same results in mye experience. There are no nodes, seating depth, and also annealing does not matter. In my AI 338LM, 300NM and Defiance 6BRA at least. What matters is that you have a good bullet and consistent charge weight. Also choosing the right primer for the powder volume seems to have an effect. Brian Litz goes throught similar findings (but with large sample sizes). I find it liberating to let go of the voodoo and simplify my loading process.
 

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