King of 2 Miles 2018 Match Rules
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LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
I would have thought that they would have relaxed the rules, but it seems like they don't want to expand the equipment or the conditions being shot under. - I guess they have the folks they want already to shoot & win.
You could load up and head to this one, take one shot in the am, 1 in the aft and drive home wondering where it went wrong. I really don't even want to express my opinion on these world records, for every distance they try cover has been done. a different spin on it does not make it a record(IMO).
https://forum.snipershide.com/forum...-yards/6785834-elr-central-world-record-event
https://forum.snipershide.com/forum...-yards/6785834-elr-central-world-record-event
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
It obviously doesn't do "All that it could" to promote all the shooting disciplines across the board. Seems like it "Serves" a "Nitch Group". -
Like I said I really want to stay out of it, but it seems most of this stuff was generated on SH after some long shots were recorded on vid. Throw in some inflated estimations of abilities and here we are.
I have a great deal of admiration for the folks who want to and do bring a new version of a shooting sport to the public venues. You with this ELR offering and another member who is bringing the sport of Fly shooting from Australia to the U.S. in the form of an international competition. Best of Luck and please keep us informed.
This is just my simple assessment and not some mind boggling insightful analysis. This is a young sport so the growing pains are going to be very real and fraught with all of the frustrations of getting the entire platform on an even keel. It can't be easy on any organization to take on the task of creating the rules for a relatively new sport yet still be able to anticipate (foresee the future...) what might occur next year let alone in the next few years. Take a look at the changes which took place in just the size of the targets for F-Class and the reasons for those changes. I see the adjustments in the weight limits as being no different than the classes which were developed for the benchrest community through the use of a lightweight class and a heavyweight class and unlimited. There is also the challenge and technological advancements which can and do allow for reductions in weight without affecting accuracy and precision negatively.
My guess would be that you need to keep your rules and guidances as flexible as possible without seeming to be arbitrary. None of us are seers for future events so we can only guess. Remember that weight will have a decided influence on calibers and cartridges fired in competition. Our bodies will only tolerate so much recoil before the adverse effects show up on the targets. This can be curtailed by the number of shots fired per session as well.
Nothing earth-shaking, just a couple of thoughts...
Just Dave
Gold $$ Contributor
.
As a former? or current ? FCSA member, you may be aware of all the hornet's nest's this event has knocked outta the eve's.
I think it was the second year it was held, there was people screaming at each other, and walking out of club meeting.
One of the gentlemen in charge of spear-heading this event rubbed some others the wrong way apparently over his time spent dedicated to promote this outside of an "FCSA event"
.
I try to ignore it,, Im just there to shoot at my fixed, 6x6 piece of paper, hoping to keep 5/5 in the black.
The equipment being developed for this match is intriguing, and it is drawing a younger, tech-savvy generation into a sport that shows great expansion potential ( IE: fixed paper target elr-shoots)
Which IMO is never a bad thing,
,
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
I wasn't there But IMO Edwardo should have never been allowed to be voted for as the FCSA president.
He's NOT even an American and has his own "agenda" in Spain to promote and I believe he used this event to do just that. - My "activity" in the FCSA has been limited. - I've shot a few matches including the 2009 WC @ Raton NM. - I still maintain my full membership with the FCSA as I want to see the 50 BMG continue to develop - Like any organization there are some good folks in it. And as well there's the internal "mafia's" who have their own agenda's. - I'm Not afraid to say it either.
Just Dave
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't think your alone in that regards.. I have not been in / around long enough to know of him, but many seem to bristle at his presence.
I too, would like to see the sporting use of the 50BMG develop further, if only for the reduced cost, or better accessibility of QUALITY components,, ( I'm selfish like that )
.
But your right, there are MORE good chits, than bad ones in the club, many of whom will share all the knowledge they have acquired, without a second thought.
This year, there is a fun shoot, before the Raton spring match, Looks to be a relaxing 5-6 days of nothing but shooting,,
I too, would like to see the sporting use of the 50BMG develop further, if only for the reduced cost, or better accessibility of QUALITY components,, ( I'm selfish like that )
.
But your right, there are MORE good chits, than bad ones in the club, many of whom will share all the knowledge they have acquired, without a second thought.
This year, there is a fun shoot, before the Raton spring match, Looks to be a relaxing 5-6 days of nothing but shooting,,
moondog
Gold $$ Contributor
We just happen to be at the monthly Sporting rifle match in Raton while the ELR match was happening.
I know a team (guess) was down there a week prior doing testing. Don't seem fair to me. We talked to a couple of guys that shot it. They were a bit disappointed in the rules and how it played out. I didn't see it
first hand so I'm just a conduit. That format doesn't interest me really. I may poke at it if it coincided with
the monthly match on the North side of the whittington Center. I am interested in pursuing ELR. That one
just doesn't Give me a warm fuzzy even though it's 4 hours away. I,ll drive to Montana for Alex,s match,
Q-creek for their match. I think the Arizona guys are working on it too. Or, just poke at crap on my
range with like minded buddies. There has to be rules, sure. The guys on Long range only I think are getting a pretty standard format dialed in. It will sure be interesting to see where it all goes.
I know a team (guess) was down there a week prior doing testing. Don't seem fair to me. We talked to a couple of guys that shot it. They were a bit disappointed in the rules and how it played out. I didn't see it
first hand so I'm just a conduit. That format doesn't interest me really. I may poke at it if it coincided with
the monthly match on the North side of the whittington Center. I am interested in pursuing ELR. That one
just doesn't Give me a warm fuzzy even though it's 4 hours away. I,ll drive to Montana for Alex,s match,
Q-creek for their match. I think the Arizona guys are working on it too. Or, just poke at crap on my
range with like minded buddies. There has to be rules, sure. The guys on Long range only I think are getting a pretty standard format dialed in. It will sure be interesting to see where it all goes.
It is a difficult task to make a shooting course challenging and fair to everyone. If it is too easy, it won't be interesting. Too hard, no one will participate. As a sport grows, then they can add classifications. What good is it to have five classifications and only one or two competitors in each? I find the ELR competitions very interesting and enjoy watching it on tv. I don't see anything wrong with the rules so far.
I said that Eduardo took the "Presidents" position in the FCSA with the sole intention of expanding his idea of the KO2M at the expense of the FCSA. Those ponderings have been proven now. I'm still a member, shoot in competitions, and have been nominated to be a FCSA board member this year. I want the sole focus of the FCSA to be the the improvement of the 50 Cal. If I wanted to be focused on 375 Lethal, 408 CT, etc.. I would join an association dedicated to that arena.
I have a friend that would have enjoyed having the ability to shoot in the KO2M, but he has a disability that prevented him from being able to shoot from a prone position, which excluded him from the KO2M. At least this year, there is going to be a "Fun Shoot" prior to the FCSA Raton Spring match, that will have targets at longer distances than just 1000 yds. The fun shoot, will allow shooting from a bench, which will allow those "disabled" to also shoot the longer ranges. For that, I give cudo's to our new President Randy P. I too, look forward to the challenges of longer distances at this Spring Match.
I think this is moving rapidly to a certified "Rich Man's Game". The connection to real world equipment is already tenuous. And the rubber band is being stretched farther every day.
At this point, "Growing the sport" is dependent on shooters who will spend $10K+ on a very specialized rifle.
Eighteen months ago I had this notion that a Savage single shot 338 LM and my Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 could compete. Silly me.
This is a modern version of the trend in ML rifles and round balls 300 years ago. As each bore size came about, a limiting factor in how many grains of BP is could burn. Barrels topped out at 48" or so, and the powder charge increased to the point that a large percentage of the powder burned outside the barrel. The answer was to go to a next size larger bore. Military usage topped out at .75" caliber. Then a Frenchman named Minie invented the picket ball. Bore sizes shrank as projectile weight increased. Then cartridge guns arrived.
Any way, ELR is headed in a direction that has no relevance to any other type of shooting. The rifles are beginning to rival, in cost, to Searcy or Chapuis double rifles, and component cost per round is approaching DR per cartridge cost.
I enjoy the LR challenges, but I am much more interested in one more trip to Africa than spending the same amount of cash to build a rifle I can shoot in two matches a year.
I expect the next rule will be limiting the wheel size on the gun carriages...
At this point, "Growing the sport" is dependent on shooters who will spend $10K+ on a very specialized rifle.
Eighteen months ago I had this notion that a Savage single shot 338 LM and my Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 could compete. Silly me.
This is a modern version of the trend in ML rifles and round balls 300 years ago. As each bore size came about, a limiting factor in how many grains of BP is could burn. Barrels topped out at 48" or so, and the powder charge increased to the point that a large percentage of the powder burned outside the barrel. The answer was to go to a next size larger bore. Military usage topped out at .75" caliber. Then a Frenchman named Minie invented the picket ball. Bore sizes shrank as projectile weight increased. Then cartridge guns arrived.
Any way, ELR is headed in a direction that has no relevance to any other type of shooting. The rifles are beginning to rival, in cost, to Searcy or Chapuis double rifles, and component cost per round is approaching DR per cartridge cost.
I enjoy the LR challenges, but I am much more interested in one more trip to Africa than spending the same amount of cash to build a rifle I can shoot in two matches a year.
I expect the next rule will be limiting the wheel size on the gun carriages...
For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....
We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr
Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..
I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.
And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..
And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....
We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr
Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..
I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.
And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..
And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..
Seems to me that people are misinterpreting the competition. There is nothing in the rules that state one must spend ten thousand on a rifle. IF you can hit the target reliably at 2 miles with your Win. mod 70 in 300 mag. then you can compete. May be a bit difficult seeing the impacts though. The competition, as it seems to me, is set up to eliminate the throwing of a lot of rounds down range hoping to hit the target once. YES, to really do the job the expensive equipment is needed. But what else can be done? It takes a lot to shoot accurately at two miles. Or am I wrong
Esoteric Junkie
Silver $$ Contributor
All,
You can shoot any caliber up to and including .50 cal in the KO2M. Last year the qualifying distances were from 1550 to 1950 yards. If you have a rifle that will ring steel at these distances come to Raton and participate in the fun. Scoring well at the close distance is the key to finishing high in the rankings.
That said, I feel the scoring system needs some tweaking. For example, someone hitting all shots on the closest plate (5x4x3x2x1x=15x distance) and NONE at further distances would score HIGHER than someone that hits ALL the targets, out to the max distance, on the last shot. This scoring scenario also plays out, in various combinations, for those hitting multiple targets further out. There is a disproportionate amount of points to be had at the closest target vs. further targets. You get five shots at the closest target (1550 yards last year) and three shots at subsequently further targets. Regardless, I am planning on going back this year and will most likely have a new build in tow.
EJ
You can shoot any caliber up to and including .50 cal in the KO2M. Last year the qualifying distances were from 1550 to 1950 yards. If you have a rifle that will ring steel at these distances come to Raton and participate in the fun. Scoring well at the close distance is the key to finishing high in the rankings.
That said, I feel the scoring system needs some tweaking. For example, someone hitting all shots on the closest plate (5x4x3x2x1x=15x distance) and NONE at further distances would score HIGHER than someone that hits ALL the targets, out to the max distance, on the last shot. This scoring scenario also plays out, in various combinations, for those hitting multiple targets further out. There is a disproportionate amount of points to be had at the closest target vs. further targets. You get five shots at the closest target (1550 yards last year) and three shots at subsequently further targets. Regardless, I am planning on going back this year and will most likely have a new build in tow.
EJ
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