It's So Darn FRUSTRATING!!!

[Bully]

I'm on several boards.

This one, where I get a lot of good solid info. Sniper's Hide for the PX. A couple of local ones. And others that I'm a member on but rarely check in to.
On one of the local boards, there is a guy looking for a "5.56 Bolt Gun" and 2 pages of discussion. The consensus is; If you're gonna shoot "LONG RANGE" you need a bigger/better caliber.

I compete with the .223 in mid-range FTR. It is capable of punching paper to 1K (My current load is at least). In NJ, where I live, 1K is the farthest we are getting to unless one takes a VERY long drive to somewhere else. And even so, 1K is not a short ride. Realistically most guys in the NJ Metro will shoot 300 99% of the time. And that is the farthest they will shoot.

I don't understand why, in anyone's world, they are forced to believe that to shoot past 100 yards they need a 408 CheyTac. Is it just everyone taking everyone else's word? Just dis-information being spread willy-nilly around the interwebs? I don't know why it bothers me as much as it does, but it does bother me.
I will sleep tonight, I promise.
But, it does bother me.

Rant off...

 

[CharlieNC]

Went to 1000yd range last week for the first time in a few months. 3-5mph winds, flags lie, always funnels from left past 800yd. At 1000yd, two shots to get wind call right on 6.5x47 then no misses. With the 223 the vertical dope is easy, but always chasing the wind whenever it changes. Wind has 50% more impact, that is why you always read that type of response. I wish I was good enough to shoot the 223 as well, but I'm not capable of reading the wind sufficently to do so beyond 500yd.

 

[Bully]

Wind has 50% more impact, that is why you always read that type of response. I wish I was good enough to shoot the 223 as well, but I'm not capable of reading the wind sufficently to do so beyond 500yd.

Me too... But I keep trying!

 

[greisdor]

Shooting 1K / .6K with a 223 bolt gun is now possible - because of new bullets and powder choices. But don’t expect to do well in switching wind conditions.

Also, if all you just want to do is see dirt fly it’s good to go. Small groups at 1K requires a 6mm, 7mm, or 7.68mm

Jr

 

[varmintshooter]

People are strange. One guy kills pretty much with a 17hmr and the next guy says a 223 isn't big enough, go figure. I feel like you should shoot what you want and learn to read the wind better and end up a better shot for it.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

If you read through enough of the threads on SH you can also come away believing that even a .308 is incapable of reaching the target at 1,000 yards. If it's found on the internet, it must be true....right

 

[perry42]

I learned more about reading the wind by competing in black powder silhouette.
When I shot high power rifle there was always a coach/spotter for me. You would observe conditions but learn to trust calls. In BP you made wind calls for fellow shooters and learned quickly to read flags and conditions from the line to
the target. The more you improved at making calls better/more experienced shooters would ask to be paired with you a win win situation. Experience and repitition are key to success.

perry42

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I think a lot of it has to do with a "hive-mind" type thing, then sprinkle in the need to justify their own decisions/brand preference. Secondly, lots of folks on other forums provide commentary, but often times you'll find that very little of it is based on actual first hand experience.

Hell, before really jumping down the rabbit hole, I was probably guilty of this myself to some extent. That said, after spending quite a bit of time researching/reading, then 10s of thousands of dollars (if not into the hundreds at this point) and actually doing it, my perspective has changed quite a bit.

I do think it's very interesting/telling to watch caliber debates on other forums; the current 6.5CM vs .308s are my favorite as of late. If you believed half the stuff written, you'd think .308s might as well be a 30-30. Meanwhile, if you stop by a match you'll see some F-T/R results who are on par/very very close to the F-Open results; hell I shot a .260 in a match last month and got stomped by multiple .308s. If you were to mention that on some forums, you'd be laughed out of the thread.

Regarding the use of .223s, you mention folks thinking a .223 isn't capable, and that's absolutely true. Conversely, you'll see folks who adopt positions way too far on the other end of the spectrum etc.

 

[XTR]

Shooting 1K / .6K with a 223 bolt gun is now possible - because of new bullets and powder choices. But don’t expect to do well in switching wind conditions.

Also, if all you just want to do is see dirt fly it’s good to go. Small groups at 1K requires a 6mm, 7mm, or 7.68mm

Jr

So, what shooting discipline are you discussing? BR?

Regarding F class.

I've cleaned many 600 yard F class targets with a 223 (15-20 shots). I've brought home a fair bit of hardware with a 223 in mid range F-TR. A 223 running 90VLDs at reasonably achievable velocities has the same ballistics as a 308 shooting 185s, it will shoot inside of a 308 running 155s at all ranges, and gives up 2 inches to a 308 running 200s in a 10MPH cross wind, but is also gives up all of the recoil too.

There are some devotees of the 223 in F class mid range that can and will spank your arse if you care to come out to shoot with them. (I'm your huckleberry .)

Shooting on the 1000 yard target at 800 and 900 it works fine, I know a Palma shooter who shot a 449 at Camp Perry with one; however, in F class at 1000 yards it gets tricky. The little case makes it almost impossible to get the kind of tight ES that you can get with a 308, so in the hands of high level competitors the 223 tends to drop points, and it's giving up a fair bit of windage to the 200gr bullets widely in use by 308 shooters. Again, at reasonably achievable velocities, the 90VLD has pretty much the same ballistics as the 185 Juggernaut. In the last 5 yrs pretty much the whole F-TR world has left the 185s for the 200s, so trying to run the 223 at 1000 is less than ideal in a competitive sense.

 

[natdscott]

.223 is a stupid choice for 1,000 yard shooting unless you are forced into it by rules.

That's as simply as I can put it, and if you're Bob Gill, my apologies and salute.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have had a modest amount of success shooting a .223 w 90 VLDs in 1000 F-TR matches. It can be done, but you need to pick the right battles in order to win with one. If I know in advance the wind will be challenging, I prefer the .308 with heavy boolits.

 

[Bully]

If it's found on the internet, it must be true....right

Yes. I believe that is a Thomas Jefferson quote.

 

[joshb]

Was it Jason Baney who won a national event in 2012 with a 6br at 1k?
A lot of guys like the big boomers, mostly the younger ones. That’s OK.
I don’t think it’s OK for self aggrandizing chest thumpers to belittle guys that want to shoot the smaller cartridges. I saw those guys on SH, years ago. It’s one of the reasons I left.
The 223 is a challenge to shoot at longer distances, that’s for sure. Other larger cartridges perform better. If a guy is informed about the limitations and challenges involved and still wants to try it, I say let him go do it.
There may be other factors in his decision. Maybe he can’t handle the recoil of the bigger guns. Maybe he can’t afford to buy and feed a bigger gun. Things he might not want to mention on an Internet gun forum.
Just sayin’

 

[swd]

I have had a modest amount of success shooting a .223 w 90 VLDs in 1000 F-TR matches. It can be done, but you need to pick the right battles in order to win with one. If I know in advance the wind will be challenging, I prefer the .308 with heavy boolits.

That's why I shoot Open. I'm not tough enough the shoot TR.

You can certainly shoot 1K with a 223 and the right bullet/twist but it wouldn't be my first choice, but neither would a 308...

 

[JASmith]

Caliber choice for truly competitive long range shooting simply boils down to a balance between recoil fatigue and wind drift potential.

The longest bullets for a caliber are typically less than six times their diameter. That length, plus shape factor, sets the sectional density and ballistic coefficient. Wind drift is reduced by increasing ballistic coefficient, but the price paid is heavier bullets and greater recoil.

Most good shooters can ignore recoil and maintain good sight picture and trigger release even with serious recoil. There is however, a fair bit of fatigue that builds up over the course of a day-long match.

The increased fatigue leads to error in all of the human factors needed for a good shot.

That’s why the 6.5 and the 6 mm calibers are gaining prominence in the long range competition world even though the .223 has the least recoil. The 55 gr Berger in 20 caliber also makes an interesting medium range prospect, but loses competiveness beyond 500 - 600 yards.

Working through recoil fatigue is also an indication that physical fitness is important to being on top of one’s shooting game.

 

[natdscott]

The 223 is a challenge to shoot at longer distances, that’s for sure. .... If a guy is informed about the limitations and challenges involved and still wants to try it, I say let him go do it.

An I'm just sayin' that everybody let me. I'm glad they did, because now I am fully informed about just HOW poor a choice .223 can be for 1,000 yard shooting.

If you have a 28-32" barrel, it can be modestly workable, though not by the ordinary Joe, and not at a high enough level to compete head-to-head with anything else except MAYBE the Palma .308s. Maybe.

If you're okay driving IROC against open-wheel F1's, I guess .223 is your game. Hell, just come shoot Service Rifle with me, and we'll drink tequila together to make it bearable.

-Nate

 

[linebaugh]

I just built a 223 AI and am presently shooting 75gr ELDs and still fireforming so not at full loads. (Basically 223 loading) I shot my first match a couple weeks ago in windy conditions and I can tell you for a fact that people think a 223 can't be competitive at 1000k because it really can't. A simple ballistics study tells you this is non negotiable. The exception would be if the dicipline requires similar ballistics for all shooters.
The above said I had an absolute blast shooting the 223 and fully intend to shoot all shoots that do not count for points with this rifle. Considering the wind would cooperate the 223 can be competitive past 1000 yards I would assume but the problem I have in PRS is spotting impacts. Two times during the last shoot at 800 yards I saw no impact on the bare dirt behind the target and spotters saw nothing on the steel. What was it? Who knows, that's just part of playing the game when you choose to handicap yourself and that part is indeed frustrating.

People like me who choose 223 when there are much better options are doing it for reasons other than trying to be top shelf competitive. Some reasons for me are as follows.
I had a scope failure last year and had my 223 been available I would have used it as a spare for a couple points shoots. Cost of reloading is significantly decreased. Reloading time is significantly decreased for me because I am not weighing these charges. Bbl life is excellent. I can train fundamentals with little cost and reasonable results. It's a hoot to see how well you do compared to the big stuff. No recoil. Introducing kids, ladies and new shooters to the sport. It's more fun than you should be able to have for what you are shooting and the list goes on and on.

I am certainly not hacking on the original poster, and I love my 223, but the genisis of this post is spot on. A 223 really can not be competitive when compared to ballistically superior calibers.

 

[Bully]

I never stayed that the 223 is competitive at 1000. Only that it is capable.
This post isn’t about pure competition. It’s about the 223 hitting a target at long-ish distances. And the refusal to believe that it’s possible to do so with it. All being spouted by guys that DON’T do it on a regular basis. Nothing more.
There are certainly better cartridges for shooting long even within the 22 cal family. Start branching out into the 6/6.5/7’s and the viability and range becomes something else.

Meh. I’m just a hairdresser that builds guns and likes to shoot. What the heck do I know.

 

[linebaugh]

I never stayed that the 223 is competitive at 1000. Only that it is capable.
This post isn’t about pure competition. It’s about the 223 hitting a target at long-ish distances. And the refusal to believe that it’s possible to do so with it. All being spouted by guys that DON’T do it on a regular basis. Nothing more.
There are certainly better cartridges for shooting long even within the 22 cal family. Start branching out into the 6/6.5/7’s and the viability and range becomes something else.

Meh. I’m just a hairdresser that builds guns and likes to shoot. What the heck do I know.

Sorry Bully. When I saw you shot competition and then said punching paper at 1000 yards I assumed. My bad. You can certainly shoot 1000 yards with a 223 and hit things.

 

[jmm03]

Bully, where in Jersey do you shoot 1000? I was from Lake Hopatcong in north jersey where it was so wooded and hilly you would be lucky to get 200... Jim (just curious)