Is upper node always better?

[fatelvis]

After handloading for almost 40 years, I've found that when searching for the optimum load in a particular cartridge, the uppermost node seems to produce the best groups. There are times I would rather shoot a milder node, (less recoil, just punching paper, or plinking) but I feel I'm sacrificing accuracy. Have you found this to be true also? Do you have any tricks or tips to help accuracy wise with the lower node's accuracy? (i.e. dacron filler, tilting the muzzle up, etc.) Thanks!

 

[Webster]

After handloading for almost 40 years, I've found that when searching for the optimum load in a particular cartridge, the uppermost node seems to produce the best groups. There are times I would rather shoot a milder node, (less recoil, just punching paper, or plinking) but I feel I'm sacrificing accuracy. Have you found this to be true also? Do you have any tricks or tips to help accuracy wise with the lower node's accuracy? (i.e. dacron filler, tilting the muzzle up, etc.) Thanks!

I have found that the bullet I use has the most to do with accuracy. Picking one bullet and beating it to death trying to make it shoot is a waste of time.

Maybe we could get guys to volunteer what bullets in 22 and 6mm shoot fairly consistent groups close to .250”. For varmint hunting rifles.

My rifles are for gH hunting. My best bullets in 6mm were 68 gr Barts Trophy Match, 60 gr Sierra Varminter and I think I t was a 65gr Blitz King Sierra. I shoot mostly 58 Gr Hornady bullets because they cost less and they are good enough and always in stock.

 

[Dimner]

In my sporting rifles it's always a lower node that is better. Im never able to get what I seem acceptable results at the screaming speeds people report on the Internet. This is cartridges like 556, 308, 7x57, 3006, etc.

These are properly bedded sporting rifles with standard but good quality hunting bullets, but the trend stays true. But keep in mind, I'm looking for the best 3 shot group with horizontal stability and fine tune from there. By the end of tuning I only care about cold bore shot 1 and shot as a follow up.

Dacron, I do not suggest for jacketed bullets. The place for Dacron is in some situations with cast bullets and usually you don't want those to go much above 2k fps.

If you want lower node accuracy, perhaps try a faster powder. They will max out pressure faster but at the lower velocity nodes. That's kind of why in middle capacity range cartridges (308 fam type capacity and 3006 fam) do so well with H4895. You can always find a load that will get good accuracy but it might not be screaming speeds because the pressure will max out. On top of that H4895 is not really that picky about case fill. You can do good at 75% fill of you have to.

Last bit of advice, generally, you will get better results with lower nodes with stick powder over ball. As ball pawder in my experience always like near max fill to get the best out of it

 

[JMayo]

I've liked the lower nodes because of brass longevity & the less powder used.
I'm very prudent ! LMBO
I've come to the thought the upper nodes stay in tune , thus the conditions don't effect them as much.
But I've shot better scores and groups with the lower in the last 4 yrs than i have with the higher ive gone to this year. However The WTH?'s have been less ... Time will tell if higher is worth it.

 

[urbanrifleman]

The most accurate node is almost never the top node. Especially if the powder is temp insensitive.

 

[Fuj]

I'll shoot the upper nodes if the target says so. I don't mind
recoil as do some on a long day. And even a hint of an advantage
in the wind, I'm not leaving on the table. I'm also shooting a 22 lb
gun in most match's and that includes from 100 yards to 1000 yards
Ridgway.

 

[davidjoe]

There’s a lot of logical implication invoked in the original post. Let’s say we have a 40 pound rifle with straight 1.50” barrel and the Berger 200 hybrid.

If we have a 308, 300 Win Mag and 30-378, and a 1,000 yard target, it is very likely that none of them will damage that bullet in a 10 shot string.

There is no node in the .308 that is so good, “inherently,” that TR shooters would permit you to shoot in TR with one of the larger cartridges. Not even a 30.06. So, it’s not as if our bullets have a certain velocity sweet spot, they don’t.

The (stabilized) bullet doesn’t know what is behind it, only whether it has been damaged or not, and how straight a line it “wants” to go in. The faster, the straighter, no way around that. (I know something about damaging these things and then it is all for naught.)

The faster we can launch it from the .308, assuming rifle and set up is stout enough that it’s shrugging off vibrational differences, the more “that” bullet wants to cheat wind and follow the barrel’s prescribed path.

But if “that” bullet is going to be judged by where bullets in line ahead or behind hit, then now we have issues to consider like, are we so high or low that we are burning powder or crushing brass and absorbing energy the same way in each shot, or getting inconsistent vibration from the barrel shot to shot?

This is why .22 bench guys prefer barreled actions smaller and more flexible that what we would choose for TR, they can’t control such a rigid set up with the relatively small vibrations they are working with, but they aren’t zero, either, in all conditions.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Strictly from a Short Range Benchrest Shooter’s point of view, I have found that in the 6PPC and 30BR, the best agging capability is indeed in the upper load window.

Of course, what we call the upper load window is not going to be found in any loading manual. When you push a 68 grn bullet at 3450 fps out of a PPC case, the pressure is pretty high.

It’s the same with the 30BR. My standard load with my own 112 grn bullet is averaging 3050 fps with excellent agging capability.

Of course, not all shoot in these upper load windows. There is one very well known Group Shooter out west who shoots in what many of us would consider a very low window, and does well. I have tried it with little success.

 

[rlporter507]

I shoot a lower node also, just easier to handle especially in rapids. I would like some more input on the quote by david joe,
"The (stabilized) bullet doesn’t know what is behind it, "
I always though that different burn rates of powder affects how the bullet accelerates, and that would affect its accuracy even if it was at about the same velocity??????

 

[Doom]

I have been interested in this topic since I started reloading about 12 years ago. Being an engineer and an analytical junkie I have tried to keep an open mind on the issue of node. I haven't run any specific test on my own but I have discussed the issue with a number shooters in various disciplines. When you analyze the various pieces that make up precision, "nodes", internal ballistics are part of the equation along with barrel harmonics and external ballistics. External ballistics includes environmental, especially wind and any specific aerodynamics that change with velocity. The latter should not be an issue since a bullet that is stable at 2800 fps is not going to be less stable at 3000 fps everything else being equal. On the internal ballistics it seems reasonable that the combustion should not be significally different at a higher node and should not be worse than at the lower node. What will change is the amplitude of the barrel harmonics which would imply that the nodes would be narrower. The bottom line is it would appear that higher velocity nodes shouldn't be less accurate/precision, and may be more accurate/precise.

There is one additional factor that has an effect on accuracy and precision. The person pulling the trigger. We ultimately judge our charges based on shooting our rifles and usually in a specific configuration. There is a vast differences between a benchrest shooter, F Class, Palma, and weekend warrior. Based strictly on the support equipment involved and the actual amount of contact with the rifle a competition benchrest shooter should have few issues shooting higher recoiling loads accurately and consistently and would be most likely to find the higher nodes less of an issue. The other disciplines require more recoil management and also have issues related to the increased contact with the rifle, hence the greater likelihood that higher nodes may be less accurate or consistent.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I agree with jackieschmidt 100%. I will add, when I started to shoot a little 1000 paper a few years ago 3 experienced 1000 shooters who are amongst the best all gave me this piece of advice almost like they had it all planned out. You short range guys are all about fast.... slow down a little.

 

[D-4297]

I know a guy who just recently won the F-Class Nationals last year , and he runs his rounds slightly below the "Node" for the bullet he uses . I tried to run the upper node for a .308 in TR , and found my X-count went up , while my scores dropped by 5 - 6 points . I slowed it down , and the scores came back up . Whatever works best for you .

 

[jelenko]

I shoot a lower node also, just easier to handle especially in rapids. I would like some more input on the quote by david joe,
"The (stabilized) bullet doesn’t know what is behind it, "
I always though that different burn rates of powder affects how the bullet accelerates, and that would affect its accuracy even if it was at about the same velocity??????

Accuracy is all about exiting the muzzle at the very same time at a time that the muzzle is relatively not in motion. Once a bullet has left the barrel, where it's going has already been determined.

 

[JFrank]

The most accurate node is almost never the top node. Especially if the powder is temp insensitive.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this, upper nodes can be amazingly accurate.

 

[jimmymac]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this, upper nodes can be amazingly accurate.

Completely agree with you Jim. Blanket statements like what was made are mostly meaningless.

Every barrel is unique. I’ve had PPC barrels that wanted to play best at low powder charges on the order of 28.6 to 28.9 grains of N133 which is pretty pedestrian. I’ve also had barrels that want 30 plus grains to be at their best. It’s all about putting in the effort to get the most out of each barrel. Feed them what they want. The targets will tell the story.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

In my personal experience, I always end up at the upper node. I do have a lot of friends and customers that do well at lower nodes.

 

[boltfluter]

In my rifles, the upper node is always the one to beat. 6BR, 6x47, 6PPC, 6Dasher and .22 Waldog, they all run their very best at red line! I think there is a trend here. Carry on.
Paul

 

[Tod Hendricks]

I’ve had the same amount of success and failure in the upper node and lower node. I’ve witnessed success and failures from other competitors from varying velocities of approximately 75-100 fps using same general cartridges and components that I primarily use.

For my game, F class with a 284 or 7-6.5 prcw, in my opinion a blanket statement declaring one node is always better than the other is not accurate.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this, upper nodes can be amazingly accurate.

Can be. I'm certainly not going to die on the hill of saying that either is "always" true.

Hey, whatever works.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Accuracy is all about exiting the muzzle at the very same time at a time that the muzzle is relatively not in motion. Once a bullet has left the barrel, where it's going has already been determined.

I tend to disagree, (somewhat) with this.

If this was true, I could stick any reasonable load combination in my 6PPC or 30BR and simply turn the tuner until it hit that magic sub .200 agging capability.

When you get into really extreme accuracy and precision, such as what we attempt to achieve in Short Range Group and Score, there seems to be a little more to it.

What this “little more” is, I am not quite sure.