Is Berger changing their 22 target line?

[tripcrow]

Berger 82BTs is now part #22424. The old 82g BTs were part #224082T. The new bullets I got are .0004” fatter and have .050”/.030” less bearing surface then either of my old lots. So of course they do not shoot the same. I haven’t been able to get an answer from Berger as to if they switched the manufacture of the 82s, are switching the entire 22cal target line, or if I just got a bad couple of sleeves. I can’t find any of the old numbered 82g BTs and am contemplating trying out some 80g and 75g VLDs or some 77BTs that I have. But I don’t want to spend all the time developing another load or loads if they are just going to be changed soon.

Anyone know what’s going on?

 

[750k2]

Bummer - I lost out on my 6mm 71BT's too.
Called and they said if I'd order 10K they would do a batch.
Maybe they'll offer the same for your gems if they are changing.

 

[PVI]

Bill,
If they are they haven't communicated anything to me. They have been going through a process of retooling a lot of their machines and replacing some older molds. They changed their part numbers about a year ago due to the increased line of bullets they were beginning to produce.

 

[SpencerC]

If they change their heavy 22's like they did with the 6mm 105's, It looks like I won't be "shooting better" anymore... Let's hope that's not the case.

 

[EricStecker]

We have not changed the 22 cal Target line. The part numbers have changed due to limitations within our distribution network. Many larger dealers and distributors could not process our 6, 7 and sometimes 8 character (older) part numbers. This is the only reason for changing the part numbers.

The difference in dimensions found on the 82 gr bullets does not make them bad just slightly different. It is impossible for us to keep precisely the same dimensions from lot to lot due to tooling wear, tooling changes and changes in material lots. Just because they don't measure exactly the same as your last lot does not mean they won't shoot. If they don't shoot with a previous load then a few small tweaks will get you squared away.

The 6mm 71 gr is a different story. This bullet was a very low seller. When volumes fall this low on a given bullet we have two choices. Either charge what it costs to make very small volume or discontinue that bullet. Since a box could cost as much as $50 when made in low volumes we assume that those few who use them will not pay this higher price which ends up being the same as discontinuing the bullet.

The 10,000 quantity requirement is only for those bullets that have been discontinued. This quantity makes it possible for us to sell these bullets at reasonable prices but if one person or a group didn't place an order for 10,000 this amount will take us 2 years to sell.

As a bullet maker who has more weight and design options for rifle bullets than any other brand we clearly demonstrate a desire to provide many options for the discerning rifle shooter. If a particular bullet becomes a slow mover we wait a couple years to see if the situation will change. If it doesn't we have no choice but to discontinue the bullet. These are not easy changes to make as we spend a lot of money on tooling to make these bullets. I'd much rather sell them than not but if the numbers aren't there then they're not.

Regards,
Eric

 

[tripcrow]

Thank you for the belated info Eric. After 3 weeks of experimenting, I can say that, yes, this new lot does shoot. The consistency between bullets in this lot lead me to believe they would and I just kept plugging away as my fellow nimrods used the time to make gains on me. My older barrel only took a couple matches of changing the powder charge to get right again. But the newer barrel has just started to come around now with a different powder. I’ve used 300+ bullets of the 1K in lesser matches getting it all straightened out again and am thinking of trying to get more of the same lot so I don’t have to throw away another 3 weeks of scores next year. Of course 4 or 5 days of range testing could have done the same thing. But when you’re shooting and reloading for multiple gun matches multiple days a week there isn’t much time left for just experimenting like in the off-season.

I’ve grown use to the .020-.040” differences in bearing surface between lots. But the .0004” difference in thickness is what I think has caused all my trouble with this lot. I’ve never had more than .0002 difference before, usually + or - .0001” and am still afraid your QC is falling as your demand and production increase. 2 phone calls to different people at Berger and an email to another before posting here failed to even get me an answer as to if you had switched the line or just this bullet to a thick jacket or a new die.

From what other make bullets I’ve tried, and the equipment lists I’ve seen, I’ll continue to use your small cal high BC benchrest bullets. Even with this PITA, like most, I’ll be a regular customer until somebody comes up with something better or just as good and more consistent lot to lot. Now to decide if I should switch to buying in lots of 5K and what to do with that many bullets if they don’t shoot.

 

[johnmyers]

Bill,
Glad to see they are shooting for you. I am shooting the 22424 in my 22br and they are great, 1in or less at 300yds. Thanks to Erik for his detailed answer.

 

[EricStecker]

Bill,

I appreciate your comments and share your frustrations. One of the things that I believe sets Berger apart from the other brands is that we will not compromise on our quality. I've spent most of the last year working on how we are going to increase output to meet demand without losing control over quality.

I won't bore you with all the details but I will share our most significant action towards this end. One of my greatest challenges is that my duties involved with running the company were pulling me away from the floor. I needed to find a way to do both. Since my cloning experiments have never achieved success I did the next best thing.

About a month ago Walt Berger's grandson rejoined Berger as Production Manager. David was the Production Manager while we were in Phoenix. He is both capable and qualified having learned how to make bullets from Walt himself from a time when he was barely tall enough to reach the handle of an RCBS A2 press.

I understand that at times it seems like we are slow to respond (or don't respond at all). I can assure you and everyone interested that this is not a result of a lack of concern but frankly the opposite. We are being very deliberate in how we grow and are setting ourselves up to be capable of much larger quantities and expanded service without losing sight of our roots.

This may sound like rhetoric which is why I don't speak often about what we are doing. It will not be long before our efforts will show people how we will be able to grow our capacity similar to (but not quite the same) the major brands while maintaining the quality level of a small hand made custom operation.

Regards,
Eric

 

[SpencerC]

What info can you give on the .224 80.5gr Fullbore bullet? I stumbled across this on the Sinclair Intl. website and cannot find any info on it.

 

[EricStecker]

SpencerC,

The 22 cal 80.5 gr Fullbore bullet was created after several inquiries from Palma shooters in Canada who wanted to shoot 223 instead of 308. Palma rules restrict shooters to using either 223 or 308 cartridges. The vast majority of fullbore/Palma shooters use 308.

There are a few shooters who are working with 223 and getting some exceptional results. In certain matches, 223 bullets can be no heavier than 81.0 gr (308 bullets can be no heavier than 156.0 gr).

This is why we have made this bullet available. The 80.5 gr bullet is exactly the same in every way as our 82 gr BT bullet. We just use 1.5 gr less lead to keep it under the Fullbore requirement.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Mudcat]

I can also add that based on my very recent experimentation with the 80.5 vs 82, they can be used interchangable. WHich is nice for someone like me that shoots a 223 Palma in fullbore matches at 600 yards and in. I tested these and all I need to do is sub out the bullet in the same load and everything shoots the same.

I also tried pretty hard to see if I could get a bullet failure and well, no, didnt happen and the bbl heat, outside heat, etc didnt seem to phase a thing. I shot almost 60 rounds of these with bullets going 2950 in one load and 3100 in another load and all rounds fired in the same gun within 25 or so minutes on a 95F+ NC afternoon at Camp Butner. Elevation was as good as I can shoot....most within X ring, just a few got higher or lower, but pulse was probably a good bit of that.

these bullets are my 223 Palma gun bullets....which one just depends on whether fullbore rules apply.

John

 

[SpencerC]

SpencerC,

The 22 cal 80.5 gr Fullbore bullet was created after several inquiries from Palma shooters in Canada who wanted to shoot 223 instead of 308. Palma rules restrict shooters to using either 223 or 308 cartridges. The vast majority of fullbore/Palma shooters use 308.

There are a few shooters who are working with 223 and getting some exceptional results. In certain matches, 223 bullets can be no heavier than 81.0 gr (308 bullets can be no heavier than 156.0 gr).

This is why we have made this bullet available. The 80.5 gr bullet is exactly the same in every way as our 82 gr BT bullet. We just use 1.5 gr less lead to keep it under the Fullbore requirement.

Regards,
Eric

I appreciate the swift reply and thank you for your time.

Cheers,
Spencer

 

[Travelor]

Eric - a question

Not trying to hijack the thread, but Eric - what is the deal with the 6mm 105 gr bullets?

They have a different profile and reduced BC. They shoot well, but what a surprise when they came in different and the "old" ones no longer made.

George

 

[EricStecker]

Given the limitations on post lengths I'll give you the link to our website blog which details the change to the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target.

http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/blog1/?cat=9

To summarize, the thicker jacket we are using to prevent bullet failures in the Target line results in the lead moving forward in the nose. It moved forward enough in the 105 gr that we were unable to make them without regularly breaking ejection pins and BT punches. We spent a lot of time trying to make them work but were not successful until we changed the size of the meplat (which reduced the BC).

For those that do not want to shoot this bullet due to the decrease in BC there are two options. The first is that the 6mm 105 gr Hunting VLD did not change. If you have not had any problems with bullet failures (blow ups) then the Hunting bullet is a higher BC option. In fact the Hunting bullet is the original 6mm 105 gr VLD and the first VLD ever made.

The second option is not available yet but we are already working on a new version for the 105 gr class bullets. Bryan has completed the design and we are in the process of making dies. It will be several more months before this new version is available but when it is completed we will have a 105 gr class bullet that has both the toughness of the Target version and the higher BC of the original version (and maybe a hair higher).

Regards,
Eric