Info from Widden testing that would be nice to know

[PNW Skipper]

By now Whidden should have a lot of data from testing many lots of ammo in a diverse set of barrels. They pique our interest with a group of the week in their newsletter, but so far don't share insights aggregated from analysis of all that information.

While I would be very surprised if they developed and offered to publish data akin to the old Eley lot analyzer, there are some general questions/insights that could still be informed by the data they now accumulate and that could be useful to the community. Here are some questions that occur to me, and for which anecdotal opinions, uninformed by the analysis of large data sets, are sometimes encountered.

1. How consistent is the observed SD & ES of group size for any given lot?

2. Do "killer" lots tend to shoot smaller groups in all rifles, or are "killer" lots random with respect to each rifle?

3. Does vertical or horizontal spread predominate in measured group sizes (N.B. the testing groups of the week tend to be symmetrical)?

4. Can any consistent performance differences within lots be attributed to barrel manufacturers, or to barrel characteristics such as rifling configuration?

5. Can any general rule be developed for the expected change in muzzle velocity vs barrel length?

6. Can any general rule be developed for the expected change in vertical point of impact vs muzzle velocity?

7. Are ammo lots that are consistently better at 50 yds/m also consistently better at 100 yds/m? (Or put another way, if one is going to shoot competitively at 100 yds/m, does one need to test at 100 yds/m as well as at 50 yds/m? And if a lot shoots very well at 100 yds/m can it also be expected to shoot well at 50 yds/m?)

8. Are the answers to the previous questions consistent with respect to manufacturer (e.g.; Eley, Lapua, RWS, et al)

9. Is there a consistent difference in group ES and SD between different grades of match ammo for a given rifle?

10. Do barrels quatifiably shoot better with ammo of a particular muzzle velocity?

The testing facility seems like the perfect place to update & extend the work of Dr H. Mann with access to a larger data set and more modern analytical tools. What other questions/insights would you be interested in Whidden publishing in their newsletter? If they were able and willing to publish data akin to the old Eley lot analyzer on a subscription basis (say $25-$50/year) would you be willing to subscribe? What about buying an annual or biannual summary of insights?

 

[CharlieNC]

This is a "free" source of extensive data which Eley and Lapua should have been utilizing to further refine the criteria they currently use to grade their quality, moreso to ultimately improve the quality. Given the latest failure of the Eley Long Range launch, their methodology or decision process was lacking.

 

[dusterdave173]

Last time Whidden shared on here in the spirit you mention--he got blasted so.....
If we could all stick to Thanks! And positive feedback it would be a step in the right direction
As a business owner building engines I saw it first hand --you work to help on forums only to get shelled with negative mess--your time is Very limited --- me and fellow business friends just saw it as time not well spent after a while. Logic says yes share as much as possible but it just takes up too much time defending every comment that comes up, It is sort of a No Win deal ---- good example is High Performance Cartridge Barrel Cleaning on here now--Litz KNOWS yet he took lots of heat for sharing his experience

FWIW they have been Very Helpful when I call with questions about anything. In 2024 I have received the very best service from any vendor from Whidden.

Yes I agree --I would like to know the answers to some of your original questions based on their experience this year Hahaha

 

[1Merlin]

If we could all stick to Thanks! And positive feedback it would be a step in the right direction

and the world would be a better place....

 

[TRSR8]

I’d guess since they are a for profit operation, not a public service operation, unlikely they spend the additional time/money for all the additional data beyond what they provide to customers, especially since they sell, quickly, 100% of the ammo that really counts.

 

[buckeye68]

Last time Whidden shared on here in the spirit you mention--he got blasted so.....
If we could all stick to Thanks! And positive feedback it would be a step in the right direction
As a business owner I saw it first hand --you work to help on forums only to get shelled with negative mess--your time is Very limited --- me and fellow business friends just saw it as time not well spent after a while. Logic says yes share as much as possible but it just takes up too much time defending every comment that comes up, It is sort of a No Win deal ---- good example is High Performance Cartridge Barrel Cleaning on here now--Litz KNOWS yet he took lots of heat for sharing his experience

FWIW they have been Very Helpful when I call with questions about anything. In 2024 I have received the very best service from any vendor from Whidden.

Yes I agree --I would like to know the answers to some of your original questions based on their experience this year Hahaha

Just remember that you and others post on here for free advertisements. Yes, you spent time answering questions but in turn your business grows till your to busy to answer questions because your to busy filling orders you received from sites like is one.

 

[whiddengunworks]

Skipper, you indeed do have good questions. I'll answer what I can, but unfortunately that's not that many.

First off, our data collection is severely limited by the target softwares. We get the exact same .pdf reports that we give to the customers and little else. The systems don't allow any sort of accumulation of data that we can later learn from. We have to take apart each and every individual's report and go from there. Too bad we're not software guys because I'm sure there's a way to do this, but we don't have it.

I'll copy your questions below and give answers as best I know. Most answers aren't rooted in solid statistics, but are anecdotal.

1. How consistent is the observed SD & ES of group size for any given lot?

For a specific test on one of my own rifles, the average group size at 50M for all of the lots combined was 17.64mm. This sample had a group SD of 1.004mm.

2. Do "killer" lots tend to shoot smaller groups in all rifles, or are "killer" lots random with respect to each rifle?

We started out thinking yes based on observations in the first few weeks of opening. However this hasn't really proven out. As one quick story, we received an excellent shooting rifle belonging to Katie Zaun (Olympic hopeful) and it shot some very small groups. My range manager brought it to my attention that I should test this lot in my gun. I had, and it ranked something like 18th of 21 lots I tested that day. Clearly the ammo was excellent, but my rifle didn't choose it.

3. Does vertical or horizontal spread predominate in measured group sizes (N.B. the testing groups of the week tend to be symmetrical)?

The great ones are indeed rather round. We have really learned of the importance of good ignition (mainly fresh springs). It's not at all unusual that we see a gun shooting slightly tall groups with several lots. We often fix this by replacing striker springs. They're cheap, so go buy some new ones.

4. Can any consistent performance differences within lots be attributed to barrel manufacturers, or to barrel characteristics such as rifling configuration?

We've looked at this, but we can't find a connection.

7. Are ammo lots that are consistently better at 50 yds/m also consistently better at 100 yds/m? (Or put another way, if one is going to shoot competitively at 100 yds/m, does one need to test at 100 yds/m as well as at 50 yds/m? And if a lot shoots very well at 100 yds/m can it also be expected to shoot well at 50 yds/m?)

It's best to test at 100M if you plan to shoot at 100M. Eley tells us we'll have the 100M equipment for their test lane soon. We're set up for 100M testing on the other test lane now.

10. Do barrels quatifiably shoot better with ammo of a particular muzzle velocity?

For sure no. Just because you're currently shooting some certain velocity doesn't mean the rifle will like that in the next lot. No connection at all.

For the questions I omitted I just don't have any good info on.

We've recently integrated velocity data into our Eley testing lane. The velocity data will show up on the final report along with the group data. It's been quite educational so far. Not surprisingly, good 50M accuracy and low velocity spreads strongly indicate better accuracy at 100M.

If you have more questions fire away. I'll do my best with the answers.

John Whidden

 

[1Merlin]

Thank you Mr. Whidden.

 

[moondog]

Thanks John

 

[Ranger188]

Thank you, John.
Great response to the questions.
Keep up the great work.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Thank you for answering these questions John.
Looking to be in your shop soon for some ammo and reloading supplies.

 

[L.Sherm]

Maybe a call into John would have been in order instead of blasting away on a forum.

 

[HuskerP7M8]

First off, our data collection is severely limited by the target software. We get the exact same .pdf reports that we give to the customers and little else. The systems don't allow any sort of accumulation of data that we can later learn from. We have to take apart each and every individual's report and go from there. Too bad we're not software guys because I'm sure there's a way to do this, but we don't have it.

John Whidden

Hi John,

It should be relatively easy to talk to one of the Eley techs and have them explain how to export the testing details along with the “Point Data”. The Point Data is simply where each shot lands using x-axis and y-axis coordinates. And, it’s what your software uses to determine the various statistical metrics printed on your .pdf reports.

When incorporated with an Excel spreadsheet, you’ll have the ability to sort all the data and isolate any variables you’re curious about including the one’s mentioned in this thread. There’s a lot more to this, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll omit it.

The image below is an example of some exported data that has been imported into the custom spreadsheets I’ve written. I think I currently have about 10,000 rds of Eley data as well as close to 200,000 rds shot in my ballistic tunnel.




With this info, the possibilities are nearly infinite, but what I do is not practical for most, or likely anyone. LOL

Landy

 

[whiddengunworks]

Thanks Landy. I'll ask.

 

[grauhanen]

1. How consistent is the observed SD & ES of group size for any given lot?

For a specific test on one of my own rifles, the average group size at 50M for all of the lots combined was 17.64mm. This sample had a group SD of 1.004mm.

2. Do "killer" lots tend to shoot smaller groups in all rifles, or are "killer" lots random with respect to each rifle?

We started out thinking yes based on observations in the first few weeks of opening. However this hasn't really proven out. As one quick story, we received an excellent shooting rifle belonging to Katie Zaun (Olympic hopeful) and it shot some very small groups. My range manager brought it to my attention that I should test this lot in my gun. I had, and it ranked something like 18th of 21 lots I tested that day. Clearly the ammo was excellent, but my rifle didn't choose it.

With larger and smaller sizes on both sides, the average group size at 50 meters in one of your rifles was 17.64mm. For match ammo that seems like a rather large average size.

How many lots were tested to produce this average? Were they all Tenex?

To flip the "killer" lots question around, are there particularly poorly shooting lots that get "fixed" by a different rifle barrel and shoot very well? In other words, does poorly shooting ammo perform poorly across all barrels?

 

[PNW Skipper]

Thanks for taking the time to reply and for the info. Even if it is largely anecdotal, you are seeing a lot more anecdotes than the typical shooter (with Landy possibly excepted!).

 

[whiddengunworks]

I wasn't clear about the group sizes quoted above. That 17.64mm average group size was across all lots of ammo, the ones that shot well in this rifle and the ones that weren't as good. The ammo I selected was a 13.something average group size as I recall. I adjusted tuner from here and brought it down a little more.

Edited- Yes, these were all Tenex in this test.

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

Maybe a call into John would have been in order instead of blasting away on a forum.

But then no one else could be a part of this!
I am far enough away (with a border in between) that I will never be able to buy from Whidden's. However, I love hearing the experiences of someone who gets to see so much testing done with high-end rifles and ammo.

 

[foxguy]

I wasn't clear about the group sizes quoted above. That 17.64mm average group size was across all lots of ammo, the ones that shot well in this rifle and the ones that weren't as good. The ammo I selected was a 13.something average group size as I recall. I adjusted tuner from here and brought it down a little more.

Edited- Yes, these were all Tenex in this test.

How are your group sizes measured, ie outside edge to outside edge, and do you subtract the diameter of the bullet?

 

[whiddengunworks]

They're outside to outside and at 50 Meters. We do this to sync up with the other test ranges, so shooters can compare apples to apples. All are 10 round groups by the way.

For rule of thumb, subtract 5.6mm to get center to center measurement. Subtract 10% from the group size to convert from 50M to 50 Yards. Divide by 25.4 to get inches. You'll now have a close estimate of center to center group sizes at 50 Yards.