IMR4064 - Did mine go bad?

[Syncrowave]

I recently opened up a 1# can of IMR4064 that's the better part of 35 years old. It seemed like the powder had gotten "clumped together," but I squeezed the can and it all broke apart into granules.

I smelled the can and it smelled "sour" at first, but then I looked, and there was a plume of red rust coming out of the can from my squeezing it. I suspect the "sour" smell was from this particulate rust.

I poured all the powder out into a baking dish and saw that there was a whole bunch of powdered rust mixed in with the powder, and the inside of the can was all rusty.

So I got a real strong ceramic magnet and worked it through the powder, and removed about a 1/4 cup of powdered rust.

After all the rust was cleaned out, the powder looked fine. I smelled it, and it didn't smell "sour" anymore. In fact, it didn't have any smell at all, not even that pleasant smell that powder has from the solvents used to make it. (I love that smell.)

Has anyone else experienced this?

Is there any potential harm in me trying to use this powder in plinking loads that I don't really care about accuracy with?

It bugs me to throw almost a full pound away...especially in these tough times, powder isn't easy to come by!

 

[CatShooter]

The rust is from the can itself, which is why the companies went to plastic jugs.

I have had the same thing happen, and if you have removed all the rust (go over it with the magnet a few times) then it is fine... when powder breaks down (very very very very very very rare!!) the grains themselves change and crumble.

 

[dzelenka]

IMR 4064 is the only powder that this has happen to for me. Same red dust as you described. it has happened to me on a couple occasions. I poured it all into my wife's flower bed.

Dan

 

[jonbearman]

I have had it happen to IMR 4320 and IMR 4895 as well.The tin cans sucked for long term storage if any moisture was around them for long periods such as the high humidity here in new york.I have transferred almost all my older IMR to modern plastic containers.

 

[CatShooter]

IMR 4064 is the only powder that this has happen to for me. Same red dust as you described. it has happened to me on a couple occasions. I poured it all into my wife's flower bed.

Dan

It is still siting there - it does not turn into fertilizer.

Smokeless powder is a plastic and does not dissolve.

 

[Shynloco]

The rust is from the can itself, which is why the companies were to plastic jugs.

Yep. And old timer gave me a few cans years ago and I just couldn't bring myself to shootin that powder (once I saw the rust) in my rifles. But my wife's rose bushes sure loved it whatever it turned into.

Alex

 

[Syncrowave]

Update: I called the folks at Hodgdon/IMR and the guy told me the rusty-looking powder was actually the powder decomposing.

When I said that I had fished out all the red stuff with a magnet (suggesting to me that it was rust, not powder), he had no comment.

"So I should get rid of it and not use it?"

"Yes, that would be my recommendation."

Elsewhere on the web, I read where someone said that once it starts decomposing, it will continue decomposing – and may even accelerate in its decomposition once the can had been opened and oxygen introduced, possibly creating a fire hazard. Whether or not that's true, it wasn't worth the worry to me, so I got rid of it. YMMV.

 

[JDMock]

Throw it out! Do not risk life and limb over one pound of deteriorated powder. I had a friend whose house burned down and they suspect deteriorated GI 322. He had noticed some of it with the red powder. That is not iron oxide (rust) but is the powder breaking down. Good shooting...James

 

[CatShooter]

Throw it out! Do not risk life and limb over one pound of deteriorated powder. I had a friend whose house burned down and they suspect deteriorated GI 322. He had noticed some of it with the red powder. That is not iron oxide (rust) but is the powder breaking down. Good shooting...James

If it is attracted to a magnet, it IS iron oxide, not deteriorating powder.

 

[stool]

ok, i was not going to respond,,,but the facts are the facts...
if it is red/brown and attracted to a magnet ..it is iron oxide..not powder.

you will never see this problem with powder in a plastic container, but you will in a metal container, or in a container with a metal top/bottom.

it is rust/iron oxide..and can be removed with a magnet...i have used different methods.
pour it over a magnet from container to container, back and forth till no more shows up on the magnet is the simplest.
i have done this with both 4227 and wwII vintage 4831 from old hodgdon steel one pound cans....marked 75 cents!

i am still shooting some of this powder. no guns destroyed, a couple of matches won, lots of lead down range.
predictable velocities.....

 

[CatShooter]

"... it is rust/iron oxide..and can be removed with a magnet... pour it over a magnet from container to container, back and forth till no more shows up on the magnet is the simplest.

Yup... wrap the magnet in Saran Wrap, and it is easy to clean it off when you are done.

 

[Webster]

Get rid of the powder. It isn’t worth working up loads with it even if is safe. If it's clumped together and smells sour it has deteriorated. If grains stick together their surface has been altered in some way. I remember 40 yo cans of powder only having metal end caps and cardboard sides. If the steel was rusting how could the rust be distributed throughout the powder. Rust normally adheres to the surface where it’s formed. I would ignore the fact it’s magnetic. From what I read somewhere the red dust is from the deterioration of the powder. Nitric and sulphuric acid are used in the chemical reaction to turn cellulose into nitrocellulose. After the reaction goes to completion the acids are removed from the nitrocellulose by washing and neutralizing. If the nitric acid is not removed below a certain percent, the nitrocellulose deteriorates with time, smells sour and there is red dust.

Iit smelled sour and there is red dust!!!!!!

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf
HOW TO CHECK SMOKELESS POWDER
FOR DETERIORATION
Although modern smokeless powders contain stabilizers and are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects. Deteriorating smokeless powders produce an acidic odor and may produce a reddish brown fume. (Don’t confuse this with common solvent odors such as alcohol, ether and acetone.) Dispose of deteriorating smokeless powders immediately. Check to make certain that smokeless powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration. Such exposure produces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of heat generated by the reaction, to cause spontaneous combustion. Never salvage powder from old cartridges and do not attempt to blend salvaged powder with new powder or attempt to blend two types of powder to make a “custom” blend. Don’t accumulate old powder stock.

 

[bheadboy]

way back in the last century, a lot of GI surplus 4895, etc. was sold in large containers. much when opened looked just like you saw. I believe but may be wrong as large as 10-20 lbs.

it was welcome to the hand loaders of the 50's and 60's and even into the 70s , I am not aware of anyone having a problem shooting it.

just my memory and experience.
Bob

 

[Syncrowave]

Yup... wrap the magnet in Saran Wrap, and it is easy to clean it off when you are done.

That's what I did (except I used a baggie).

I would have kept and used the powder, had it not been for one question that kept nagging at me:

If it was rust, then where did the moisture (or corrosive chemical) come from, to form rust in a sealed container?

My theory is that the moisture (or acid or other corrosive chemical) was a product of the decomposition of something in the powder. I didn't want to risk using a powder whose composition might have changed (was it a burn speed regulator that decomposed?) so I tossed it.

Again, your mileage may vary.

 

[rminut]

I have a 8# can of IMR4320 with the same exact thing. I'm about 6 pounds into it and it has shot excellent. no problems whatsoever. my can was from the mid to late 90's and I opened it around 2009.

 

[LHSmith]

#1...Why would anyone attempt to subject their bore to possible iron oxide dust?
#2.. Smokeless powder is mainly nitrocellulose derived from wood or cotton fiber, the only plastic is the thin layer of deterrent coating which the acids in your soil WILL break it down in time.
#3.. this stuff is covered in EVERY loading manual that I have seen, and apparently the powder has seen temperature cycling which has broken down the deterrent coating and decomposition has started- causing the container to rust from the inside.

 

[CatShooter]

#1...Why would anyone attempt to subject their bore to possible iron oxide dust?
#2.. Smokeless powder is mainly nitrocellulose derived from wood or cotton fiber, the only plastic is the thin layer of deterrent coating which the acids in your soil WILL break it down in time.
#3.. this stuff is covered in EVERY loading manual that I have seen, and apparently the powder has seen temperature cycling which has broken down the deterrent coating and decomposition has started- causing the container to rust from the inside.

1 - When it is removed, it is no longer a problem - if you don't think you can do that, or want to do that - what is the problem - just don't do it - why rant about it.

2 - You are mistaken - nitrocellulose IS a plastic. It dissolves in in acetone and ether - it does NOT dissolve in water.

Try it yourself... put some in a glass of water. It will be there 50 years from now.

3 - Temperature cycling? What the hell is that??? How does our ammunition survive in winters and summers - how does our military exist, fighting in different clymates - this is past silly. You made it up! ;D ;D ;D

And last, you should know this... once a loading manual is written, it is edited by attorneys.

 

[Shynloco]

1 - When it is removed, it is no longer a problem - if you don't think you can do that, or want to do that - what is the problem - just don't do it - why rant about it.

[/quote]

Talk about others ranting????????????????????? Now there's a classic of all time!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CatShooter]

1 - When it is removed, it is no longer a problem - if you don't think you can do that, or want to do that - what is the problem - just don't do it - why rant about it.

Talk about others ranting????????????????????? Now there's a classic of all time!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]

Yup... "The sky is falling, the sky is falling..." ;D ;D ;D

 

[LHSmith]

See thread of 1/25/14 "Can this powder be salvaged?", Reply #13 ....a response from Alliant Powder.
The recommendation is to spread it on the lawn or garden......NOT dump it into the swimming pool which is analogous to a posters water glass analogy.
Heat cycling = temperature swings through a period of time.
Excerpt from all the free powder manuals on smokeless powder:
Consideration for storage
Smokeless powder is intended to function by burning, so it must be protected against accidental exposure to flame, sparks, or HIGH TEMPERATURES.
For these reasons, it is desirable that the storage enclosures be made of INSULATING materials to protect the powder from EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCES.