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If I back off "jam" to .05 "jump", do ladder test results change?

I am over thinking again!!!! You do ladder tests to get the bullet to exit the barrel at the same place in the vibration curve. Right?? I do all my ladder and/or load testing with a "jam" bullet seating and then tweak by adjusting the jump. Wouldn't increasing the "jump" be the same as increasing the length of the barrel? And, therefore negating the ladder test results.

On a slightly different subject, in the long and dim past I remember seeing a time released photo of a bolt action rifle being fired and being amazed at the contortions the action and barrel went through. Anybody got a copy of that photo?

Bill
 
Yes and no. If you are in a really bad spot your ladders will be erratic and un readable. If your not too far off then the ladder wont change much. I have found seating depth does not change with powder charge. So if you test for seating depth with 33 grains and 35 grains you will end up at the same depth. Of course once you do your ladder, then figure you seating depth and neck tension you should always go back and fine tune the powder again. JMO
 
So instead of starting testing with a ladder for powder, would it be best to a depth test somewhere near the powder charge range you will be testing and then do your ladder for powder?
 
Curious, what’s “jam” to you, the ogive forcibly shoved into the lands far as it’ll go, or, near as can be determined, the point of first ogive contact with the lands, or possibly somewhere more an in between?
 
As far as I know, the use of "jam" came from short range benchrest, where shooters load at the range, and found it convenient to use it as a starting point for seating depth settings. The old school definition is the longest loaded length that a bullet can be seated to, using the neck tension that will be used for the loaded ammo, that will not be seated farther into the case as the round is chambered. The usual way that I find this length is to load a round (if I am at the range, and can can chamber the round at the firing line while the line is hot) or dummy round with the bullet seated long. The OAL is measured before and after chambering to make sure that the bullet was pushed back. I am usually working with a Wilson seater, and if I want to seat say .006 off, or shorter than jam, I will subtract the chambered length from the loaded length, add the amount that I want to be off jam to that and lengthen the combined length of the stem and cap by that amount, and record the measurement in my loading notes for the day, along with the rifle and barrel, and what bushing I sized with.

On the matter of load testing and seating depth, I usually pick a depth that has worked with that particular bullet, or one with a similar shape, and test powder charges until I come up with a likely powder charge, based on minimizing vertical, and then experiment with seating depth at that charge weight, in and our in increments of .002, all of this usually into the lands by some amount. I read about a lot of testing that seems to take too many rounds, and have seen threads where targets were posted that looked to me like the rifle had major issues like bedding, that were unresolved. IMO serious pursuit of accuracy requires that bedding be perfect before load testing is begun. I do not get the impression that this if fully understood by all that attempt it. There is also the matter of wind flags. Come to a short range benchrest match sometime. All of those flags are there for good reason. (Remember I am talking about load testing. I understand that short range benchrest flags may not be appropriate or available for other types of shooting.) People who choose to ignore this requirement tend to look to me like they have a lesson or two to learn...putting it as politely as I can. Elaborate flags are not required if one is on a budget. Sticks with lengths of surveyors' tape are a lot better than nothing. I also see some serious issues with bench equipment and technique, that are not a matter of intelligence or aptitude but rather simply an indication that the person has not been shown what works better. No one is born knowing this stuff. The reason that I mention these things is that I see fellows looking at their groups and thinking that they have a load issue, when it is probably the wind, their rifle's bedding, or something that they are doing at the bench while shooting. The good news is that these things are relatively easy to remedy.
 
BoydAllen – Quote: “The OAL is measured before and after chambering to make sure that the bullet was pushed back.”

Are you testing for charge weight with the projectile seated to “zero”, same as the measured and recorded “bullet was pushed back” seating depth?

Seems to me, having established a “zero” reference point using the above method, the only direction folk could go with the bullet would be to back away from the lands, seated deeper into the case. Seems an attempt to seat further out so deeper into the lands would end up on closing of the bolt with the lands shoving the projectile right back deeper into the case, parking the bullet back at the same zero point.

Tryin’ to get this stuff figgered out, then imprinted betwixt me ears.
 
OleFreak said:
BoydAllen – Quote: “The OAL is measured before and after chambering to make sure that the bullet was pushed back.”

Are you testing for charge weight with the projectile seated to “zero”, same as the measured and recorded “bullet was pushed back” seating depth?

Seems to me, having established a “zero” reference point using the above method, the only direction folk could go with the bullet would be to back away from the lands, seated deeper into the case. Seems an attempt to seat further out so deeper into the lands would end up on closing of the bolt with the lands shoving the projectile right back deeper into the case, parking the bullet back at the same zero point.

Sorry bsekf...not trying to hijack your thread.

Old Freak,
What you have described is the method I use and you could call it the "zero point" I suppose. And I usually run that "zero point" seating test twice to make sure it's a consistent reading. BTW, I run that test at home and not at the range. From there, you can decide how much you want to back away (from zero point) and test to find your best accuracy. Might even be worth while to figure out the point where there is NO contact with the rifling and contact (when chambered) and note that difference as well. And as we all know, jump can be very different from one rifle to another, in terms of better or worse accuracy. Hope that makes sense.

Alex
 
Next time I’m fishing for both, be using Sinclair’s tool to find the point of first contact and closing the bolt on a bullet seated overly long to have the lands shove it deeper into the neck to the “zero” point, that’s assuming a combination that’ll leave enough bullet still in the neck to allow such. If not, then plan B is manually shove on the bullet using Sinclair’s tool and see how much further the “zero” point is beyond the point of first contact.

Seating depth in testing charge weight will be either the hard jammed “zero” reference point or near to it as can be and still have ~ 3/16” of the bullet’s bearing surface left inside the neck. I figger after finding a charge weight and while looking for the friendliest of seating depths that pressures will fall off a bit more with each increment it’s seated a touch deeper into the neck and so further away from “zero”, to a point anyways. Beats having to lower a promising lookin’ charge weight after encountering too much of a pressure increase that was brought on by incrementing the ogive nearer to or deeper into the lands.
 
OP,,,why dont you do it and share the info with us,,,,usually moving the "jump/jam" around only tightens up the groups ( or loosens it !!),,,,Roger
 
What you referred to as a zero point is jam, a specific loaded length for that bullet barrel rifle neck tension combination. It will change if you change the amount you are sizing necks, or even with the finish of the inside of your necks, anything that varies the friction between case neck and bullet. You are correct in saying that once jam is established one only has one way to go with seating depth....shorter. That is one of the main reasons that short range benchrest shooters have chosen this method, convenience. Since a good number seat some distance into the lands, jam is a handy reference, for them. On the other hand, if one is jumping, not so much. I generally like to know both...jam and touch. The reason being is that if one is working close to touch, into the lands a bit, if one makes an adjustment that takes the bullet out of contact with the lands, there will be an immediate reduction of chamber pressure in the amount of 5-6,000 psi, and that can have a big effect on tune.

The reason that I start my search for a load with a seating depth that is into the lands is that the max load that I establish will be more useful as a limit than one that I came to with the bullet seated off the lands. In effect it will be a worst case situation, unless I come off the lands so far that case capacity becomes an issue, and for the short bullets that we use in short range benchrest, I have not seen that happen.

One more point worth mentioning is that while I use the tip of the bullet to determine if it is being pushed back, I use the combined length of my Wilson seater's stem and cap as a reference in my notes. If my calculations tell me that the bullet was pushed back say .020 from where I had the die set to intentionally seat it long, and I want to be .005 off of (shorter than) jam, I screw the stem out of the cap .025 to achieve that setting, and record the resultant length of the assembly as giving me .005 off. That gives me a reference from where the stem contacts the bullet rather than from its tip, and saves me the trouble of carrying another tool to the range. If I am working with a caliber that I do not have an arbor press type seater for, I take along my Stoney Point (now sold by Hornady) tool for measuring off of the ogive.
 
Glad I started this thread. My jam is the bullet just touching.......I use a split case and my Stoney point tool to measure length after I am sure it has been "pushed back" and then write that figure on the box of bullets. So I figure I can push the bullet into the rifling another .002-.005. , to me it is moot. I usually do my OAL tests at >.005 increments. I find that bullets vary nearly that much.

BoydAllen, Is there that much decrease in pressure when you back off jam or kiss? For some reason I have been lead to believe that jamming the bullet did not raise the pressure very much, if any, and that a big jump might cause more of a pressure spike. I cannot cite references.

Bill
 
To "Jam" is to reach a point at which it will no longer go any further..... This is where people get confused and have varying numbers when using a stoney point tool... The first bit of resistance you encounter is "Touching the lands" , but rest assured if you keep pushing with some force it will continue engaging the rifling until there is no way you can push any further...You have jammed the bullet into the rifling. There will be a point at which you can not jam any further , if you COULD continue jamming then you have a serious problem such as wrong caliber bullets for the bore lol.

The distance between touch and jam can be miles in the scope of thousands of an inch due to many factors such as leade angle , what condition the bore and grooves are in and Ogive design etc.

If a person could go beyond jammed such as you see people say they are .040" jammed , then by that reasoning they are saying they could jam as far as they would like until the bullet was no longer in the neck of the case... Quite impossible.

What they are meaning is that they are .040" past touch . And depending on the factors mentioned above it is entirely possible to go an additional .040" past the point of touching the leade.

Put it to you this way.. If your chamber was cut with a reamer that had no angle transitioning from neck diameter to the rifling you would essentially have a 90 degree wall where the bullet met the rifling and that would indeed be jammed if you had a bullet seated to touch that area. That is not the case tho , there is a transition period and the lengths will vary.
 
I got the figure from a reloading manual and that was from a pressure gun. Are you saying that your head to ogive loaded round measurements vary by .005 or bullet base to ogive do? If the latter, measure some loaded rounds that were loaded with bullets that varied quite a bit base to ogive, and get back to me on the variance that you see base to head. I think that you will find that as a practical matter, if you are working at touch or longer, that moves in seating depths of .005 are way too coarse for the best results. Of course all of this depends on the degree of accuracy that is expected.
 
I believe that the classic use of jam, as a reference to seating depth, is as a noun rather than a verb. Fellows have come along and taken great liberties with that, much to the confusion of their readers. Also, as I mentioned, it is at the neck tension that will be used for the actual loads, and so will vary with that. I do not believe that most would be able to duplicate the degree of seating into the lands that one can get to with tight neck tension by the use of a tool like the Hornady/Stoney Point. If you want to know the difference between touch and jam for a given combination, it is easy enough to determine by a little testing and measuring. Conjecture is not required.
 

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