I never anneal and.........

[CaptainMal]

'60's lot of 6MM Rem. brass. Been through 4 different rifles. Started splitting necks literally every shot or die pass. Sat in a box for a decade.

Wanted to learn how to anneal my Dasher brass. Started with this junk. Just 10 seconds in a rotating socket with old propane torch. Now I have loaded and shot them at least 2 - 3 times. One failure out of say 100. Almost nothing.

What I learned is annealing works. Even screwed up, unprofessional methods like mine work.

 

[TonyR]

Thinking out loud.

Tight necks + match chambers = less to no need for annealing.

loose necks + factory chambers = need to anneal.

If I'm correct on this how is about,

no turn necks + match chamber?

I anneal about ever third firing on my Lapua brass for 6mmbr. So far working terrific I have 10 reloads on some of this brass with no signs of it giving up anytime soon; shoulder bumps are consistent and accuracy is good.
Any one with this type of setup do not anneal at all??

Heavies.
I've been following a bunch of similar threads to try and figure that out myself. So many great shooters either do or don't anneal that it is an interesting question. The answer may depend on a number of factors but I'm beginning to think that style of shooting may have as much to do with getting benefit from annealing as anything else.

I think we could all agree that consistency is one of the most important factors in all disciplines of shooting but it may require different steps to achieve in different disciplines. Erik and I are F-Class shooters. We spend most of our time shooting at 600 to 1000 yard distances. We attend matches where we might take anywhere from 100 to 600 loaded rounds to any particular event. In addition, we might shoot anything from 15 shots with 2 sighters to 20 shots with unlimited sighters and 2 or 3 matches per day and so on; so, if you have prepped say 600 cases, it is almost impossible to keep track of how many times each of them has been fired over the course of a shooting season. For us, annealing is like a reset button that brings them all back to a uniform neck tension. Other disciplines requiring fewer cases and with more consistent match formats might make the "reset" less important.

The distance at which matches are shot may also be a factor. In his recent book, Tony Boyer reflects on the differences between loading for 100-300 yards and the longer ranges and how he might do things differently if he competed at longer distances. Many long range shooters spend a lot of time sorting, trimming, pointing and whatever to make improvements in ES/SD and BC that are hard to see on the target at less than 300 yards but make a noticable difference at 600 and 1000 yards. Annealing may be one of them.

Just my $0.02.

 

[fdshuster]

A lot of excellent viewpoints and experiences here, and another factor again brought home to me, just a short while ago, while seating Federal 205's in two boxes of 20 each Lapua 6BR. 20 have been loaded 4 times and 20 are now at 26. When seating the primers on the newer cases I had a noticable harder primer seating, indicating tight primer pockets. There was definately less seating pressure required with the older brass, indicating that the primer pockets are beginning to open up. So, with that in mind, is it not true that usable case life is also dependant on how long the primer pockets remain tight? And we all know that some cartridges have a history of shorter life because of the primer pockets opening up, so that has to be another consideration, as to the value of annealing. CaptainMal: Similar to your Dasher, I've recently become involved with my first 6BRX chambering, and after all the work, in fire-forming, want them to last as long as possible. Just loaded a box of 20 for the 18 th. time, and so far, all is normal. It was when first thinking of the 6BRX that I started getting opinions on the proper way to anneal, and for 6 experienced people asked, I got 6 completely different responses.

 

[TonyR]

A lot of excellent viewpoints and experiences here, and another factor again brought home to me, just a short while ago, while seating Federal 205's in two boxes of 20 each Lapua 6BR. 20 have been loaded 4 times and 20 are now at 26. When seating the primers on the newer cases I had a noticable harder primer seating, indicating tight primer pockets. There was definately less seating pressure required with the older brass, indicating that the primer pockets are beginning to open up. So, with that in mind, is it not true that usable case life is also dependant on how long the primer pockets remain tight? And we all know that some cartridges have a history of shorter life because of the primer pockets opening up, so that has to be another consideration, as to the value of annealing. CaptainMal: Similar to your Dasher, I've recently become involved with my first 6BRX chambering, and after all the work, in fire-forming, want them to last as long as possible. Just loaded a box of 20 for the 18 th. time, and so far, all is normal. It was when first thinking of the 6BRX that I started getting opinions on the proper way to anneal, and for 6 experienced people asked, I got 6 completely different responses.

Frank.
You are absolutely right about brass life. It can be a very big issue for long range shooters. One of the big negatives of the 284 case many of us use in one form or another is the loosening of the primer pockets perhaps due to the rebated case head. I can usually get 12 reloadings out of one if I keep the pressure down, but I have to be careful. If you shoot a 284 Shehane like I do, I loose one to fireforming and maybe one more to finish the job if I don't remember to anneal them first. People shooting the Norma WSM case talk about 4 or 5 reloadings before the primer pockets are loose. It does make me think twice about what cases I want to use because I invest a lot of my time prepping each one. Annealing doesn't help the primer pockets, at least that I've noticed, but I know three people who are trying to come up with a tool of some sort to tighten them up.

 

[necchi]

So, with that in mind, is it not true that usable case life is also dependant on how long the primer pockets remain tight?,,

,,,that I started getting opinions on the proper way to anneal, and for 6 experienced people asked, I got 6 completely different responses.

Boy, That say's it all.
The annealing question(s) seem to come up every few weeks, I remember when I asked'm a few years back. It's almost always a well recieved yet debated topic with the same various opinions as well as all the right ways and a few of the wrong ways to go about the task.

FWIW, I decided too anneal, to save the details I do it myself, when they need it.

And as I type I have a batch of 50 that will receive their last loading because of loose pockets, they've had a long and plentyfull life but will hit the scrap bucket after one last fling, ;D

 

[holstil]

Tony, I like the way you think. I am on the fence looking for reasons to justify one way or the other. I'm sure there are more than a few other people in the same boat.

I started annealing cases not long ago and really like what I feel when I seat the bullets and the idea that the case life is extended. However, I have not seen an improvement on paper that I can prove yet. I shoot 600 and 1000 BR.
So, as of now, As long as I have time I will anneal since there is no difference on paper and I get more shots out of my brass. I figure I cut my chambers with the same reamer so I keep using the brass from my bench gun to shoot in my practice/plinking guns.

I plan to shoot 100/200 and F-class soon, so I like to here what those guys are doing.
Come to think of it, I'd like to get into three gun and steel challenge.

I respect most opinions here and will follow these threads when they pop up.
Jim

 

[in2deep]

I don't know much being a new cf shooter but it seems that on my new 6BR Lapua brass the first few times I resized the cases it took considerable effort pulling the handle on the press and the bullet seat force was also hard and variable firing to firing but after that and the next 8 firings (never annealed) the brass seemed to reach a more stable state and is much easier to resize without reefing on the press and much more consistant than when it was going through changes the first few times fired.
Still groups under 3/4" at 300 yards when it's not blowing and the brass looks great so maybe I will let the experiment run.
This could be wrong thinking but maybe the brass is less springy now and holds it's shape better than before and is being worked even less than soft brass which wants to keep moving and changing all the time which is what I was looking to hear when posting the question so as not to feel guilty for not annealing lol..
Another observation which goes against others who posted before is that I am actually using a larger neck bushing now (.269 and going to go bigger) after a few firings as it appears that after the brass settles down and springs back less after coming out of the neck bushing and has alot more grip.
Don't tell anybody cuz it's embarrasing and sacrilegeous but after the 7 th. firing as an experiment I reloaded 50 rounds without doing anything to the cases (no resizing or neck bushing at all) and just seated the bullets and they shot just as good as the others. Tumbling in stainless media makes inside the case mouths squeeky clean which makes the bullets grip tenacious in the neck with little tension possibly allowing the use of larger bushings to move the brass even less?.

 

[fdshuster]

in2deep: Yes, I've also reloaded tight fitted neck brass without any neck or body sizing. Hand punch out the primer, clean the pocket, seat a new primer, add powder, seat bullet & shoot. I can do it 3 or maybe 4 times before I have to bump the shoulder back .001" or .002". Can't remember the last time I had to trim any of this brass. It just does not stretch. 6ppc & 6BR chamberings.

 

[TonyR]

Tony, I like the way you think. I am on the fence looking for reasons to justify one way or the other. I'm sure there are more than a few other people in the same boat.

I started annealing cases not long ago and really like what I feel when I seat the bullets and the idea that the case life is extended. However, I have not seen an improvement on paper that I can prove yet. I shoot 600 and 1000 BR.
So, as of now, As long as I have time I will anneal since there is no difference on paper and I get more shots out of my brass. I figure I cut my chambers with the same reamer so I keep using the brass from my bench gun to shoot in my practice/plinking guns.

I plan to shoot 100/200 and F-class soon, so I like to here what those guys are doing.
Come to think of it, I'd like to get into three gun and steel challenge.

I respect most opinions here and will follow these threads when they pop up.
Jim

Jim.
I guess the boat we are all in is higher standards of perfomance in all shooting disciplines. Better bullets, powders, brass, primers, etc have elevated the level of winning performances, and so people are looking for ways to keep up. For many competitors, annealing is one possibility.

I feel like I am peeling an onion as I go along. I improve in one area then I see something else, and I'm not just talking about reloading. Gun handling, bag setup, wind doping can take turns being the next most important opportunity to improve. I guess that is what makes it fun and keeps the sport interesting.

I have just made my first passes through Tony Boyer's and Byran Litz's new books, both of which offer a lot of new, to me at least, insights and perspectives. Both are well worth reading IMHO.

 

[6BRinNZ]

6BRinNZ: Nothing scientific or any hard and fast rules. When I see the number of times reloaded, could be as little as 18 or as many as 24, I may use the next smaller size bushing for a little more bullet pull, my thoughts being that the brass is at least a little more work hardened compared to when newer. With an even higher count, around 30 may even go for one size smaller again. Throughtout the whole range, I've never seen any changes in groups sizes, with the 6ppc's (4 chamberings) and the 6BR's ( 3 chamberings).

Thanks for the info Frank. This has been a very interesting thread. The whole equation is looking to me like a lot of shooting/case prep - unique to the setup and or shooting discipline.
Its been drummed into me that consistent neck tension is a must for consistently small groups, but your results imply there is a little more lee way.....or maybe your setup is keeping the brass within that acceptable range....Definitely food for thought!

I have shied away from using smaller bushings but I will definitely give that a try now...

However I have jumped on the annealing band wagon as well so I can figure out which will work for me...I am looking for improvements in consistency on paper and maybe brass life will be a bonus.

I have specific flyers that I want to remove (see pics) so I will try both annealing and smaller bushes in my approach.


Erik - I have uploaded a couple of pics that have flyers in them. I feel it is something to do with the brass that is causing them. I am hoping annealing will help. Where you mentioned annealing improved flyers would these be relative examples of what annealing improved for you..I appreciate your flyers were probably smaller

 

[Erik Cortina]

I think annealing will help with your shot to shot consistency. If groups don't improve, work on your load or seating depth.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I think annealing will help with your shot to shot consistency. If groups don't improve, work on your load or seating depth.

Thanks - should be quite interesting between the two approaches, since I have something specific I am trying to fix.

 

[fdshuster]

Not trying to start a controversey, just quoting from the May 2011 issue of "Precision Shooting" magazine, page 96: From "The female shooter who made Allie Euber work for that 2010 score shooter of the year trophy". Kim Llewellyn, who finished only one point behind the winner etc., etc. Question: "Do you anneal your brass"? Answer: " No. We have some brass that has been used almost 50 times and it still shoots well". Note. The cartridge is 30BR.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Not trying to start a controversey, just quoting from the May 2011 issue of "Precision Shooting" magazine, page 96: From "The female shooter who made Allie Euber work for that 2010 score shooter of the year trophy". Kim Llewellyn, who finished only one point behind the winner etc., etc. Question: "Do you anneal your brass"? Answer: " No. We have some brass that has been used almost 50 times and it still shoots well". Note. The cartridge is 30BR.

Yeah, but if she annealed she would have probably won! ;D

 

[6BRinNZ]

Not trying to start a controversey

Too late its in the writing

I suspect the annealing debate will be raging long after we are gone - along with; which scope is best, how do I break in my barrel, what is the best cleaning product ;D

If it ain't broke don't fix it, YMMV are all applicable on this one....