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Hunter Class Score Competition

JoeDuke

Gold $$ Contributor
I believe we have been asking the wrong question or perhaps considering the wrong solution when we address modifying the hunter class rifle requirements.

We have been discussing perhaps modifying the scope requirements or rifle weight to take advantage of more modern variable scopes and thus overcome the fact that there is no suitable 6 power rifle scope currently in production. And this does bear merit. All the scopes currently in use are probably 20 or more years old and are subject to breakage just as any scope is. Additionally, as far as I know, there is only one business doing repairs on them. Their stock of parts must be old as well. One day, all this equipment will be used up. Whether soon or later, I cannot say. But it does have a finite lifetime.

However, the larger question in my mind is how to ensure that new shooters join the Hunter class in order to keep it as a viable competition. It is the older and more venerable of the two classes that we currently shoot and in my mind, it certainly is worth preserving and growing.

But, changing the rules or equipment requirements will not preserve the class unless we figure out how to attract new shooters to the class. Currently, there are just not enough participants in the class. At the recent score nationals, we had only 46 shooters compete in the Hunter class. This has been close to the average participation for the last few years. When I look at the Gulf Coast region, I count 13 Hunter shooters who attended the Nationals this year. Three of those were shooters who built or acquired a Hunter class rifle specifically for the Nationals competition.

Further, in all the discussion to date, many have voiced the same opinion that they would like to see more ranges and matches in their area.

Now, attracting new shooters to Benchrest has been beat to death in recent years with it seems no real consensus on how to get more people into the sport. It just seems like there are no good answers. But, Mr. Randy Robinett set me to thinking recently. Reviewing the Nationals, he proudly pointed out that folks in his region had taken all of the top five placings in the Two Gun Agg. Hmmm. Stirred my competitive side a bit and so I looked at the Gulf Coast results. Not bad. Our top five took 9th,10th,11th,12th, and 17th. But clearly outclassed by their performance. And that set me to thinking about the origins of score shooting way back when.

To boil it all down, there was an organization / group called the Trans Continental League. In a nutshell, when each club held their scheduled matches, they submitted their top five scores as their team of that match to the TCL which then tabulated all the scores and issued a publication showing who won what that match. Mr. Robinett and others can supply more details but the gist is a regular competition at the club level to get and hold the interest of shooters. Combine that with a mentor program whereby new shooters can be introduced to the game of score shooting and we might be able to bring back some of the deep interest that score shooting enjoyed in years past.

So my idea is to form a league like structure of local clubs to participate in regularly scheduled Score matches with results to be submitted to a central collection point. The scores then could be tabulated, winners determined, and results posted for all to see and enjoy. This organization would not be affiliated with any of the major groups but would be open to club participation from all clubs sponsoring score matches shot on common NBRSA or IBS style score targets. Clubs would also conduct the matches following either IBS or NBRSA rule of competition.

The TCL relied on written score submission and written publication of the results. In today’s world, the scores could be submitted electronically and all results published electronically. Additionally, this need not be limited to Hunter class. If the number of shooters were there, we could contest Hunter, VFS, and possibly Two Gun. Just have to figure out what the rules are and how it could be administered.

Eventually, if we build enough interest, then we may have to look at Hunter rifle requirements in order to make equipment readily available to everyone. That would be a good thing.

What say you? Any merit to any of this?
 
Joe, Participated in the Trans Continental League back then. It was a neat concept.
I simply decided to dedicate myself to Group Shooting untill the NBRSA instituted Varmint for Score as a registered competition.

In all honesty, I have little desire to shoot HBR At this time. The single item that really defines the class is the 6x scope, which requires the use of a spotting scope.
 
I also shot a couple of TCL matches way back when. Looking at the Nationals, VFS attendance is not a long way above Hunter and indeed has never reached the numbers that participated in Hunter many years ago. If nothing is done, I fear VFS will follow the decline of Hunter.
My point is, that club level competition could occur in either class and might give them a reason to grow.
In recent years we have set on our laurels and collectively not done much to grow the sport. (Excepting a few like yourself)
If we collectively dont do something, it dies.
 
I don't mean to start an argument......Well maybe a little !!.....Who came
up with the scope power rule. Get rid of it, period. Maybe add a price
constraint, but let the shooter decide what power is needed for the job
at hand. Current hunting rifles and variable power scopes, made that rule
obsolete. Even back in the day, a 3-9 was the way to go, and now it's 6-24's
on an average......Problem is dragging new, upcoming shooters back to the
stone ages. Have to get with the times......Just my thoughts. !!
 
BY the way. This topic is cross posted on Benchrest Central, Accurate Shooter and the facebook group "Benchrest shooting and Gunsmithing" . If you have a particularly good point, please share it on all forums.
 
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If you want to attract new folks to competition, first you need to look at it through their eyes which might shed some light on why you are or are not getting many new folks into some disciplines. Younger folks are not like you were at their age, they are a completely different animal with different drivers and obstacles in life.

PRS shooters should be low hanging fruit, as they get older and looking to compete in something less physical that's an opportunity for you all. Get them primed and eventually they will come.

As for attracting new folks to competition, that's a tall order these days but you could at least target those that come to this site and might have enough interest to at least look at what's involved. Make it easier for them to find the info and understand the verbiage. This site and the competition forum, a great start would be pin a summary page that lists all the disciplines, a short desc of each and list the basic requirements. At the bottom put links to more information on each and order it top-down simple to complex.

I have more time than many non-retired folks and I just don't have the time or desire to look all over trying to figure out what each discipline is and the basic requirements for them. I looked at the rules for a couple once, most of it made zero sense to me because I didn't understand any of the verbiage.
 
I don't mean to start an argument......Well maybe a little !!.....Who came
up with the scope power rule. Get rid of it, period. Maybe add a price
constraint, but let the shooter decide what power is needed for the job
at hand. Current hunting rifles and variable power scopes, made that rule
obsolete. Even back in the day, a 3-9 was the way to go, and now it's 6-24's
on an average......Problem is dragging new, upcoming shooters back to the
stone ages. Have to get with the times......Just my thoughts. !!
The class came into being a long time ago and at this point, the 6X scope is sort of the defining feature. And what makes it a challenging class to shoot. And there is currently another class where you can shoot any scope you want. Varmint for Score or VFS for shorthand. So there is no reason to get rid of the scope rule entirely for this class. That would just be eliminating the class. I say, Shoot em both. double your fun!
 
There’s a couple local ranges that have a 600 yard hunter class competition along with a few other classes including tactical, 50 bmg, open class etc. There’s no scope power limit. There’s a custom/factory class. 10 shots, 10 minutes with a 2 minute cool down after 5 minutes. The whole competition is extremely fun. Always prizes. Would be nice to have a magnum class with less rounds and longer time to complete. I’ve tried a couple magnums and they open up in the current coarse of fire. I think this pushes a lot of actual hunters away. It’s more friendly to the smaller cartridges
 
Just thinking but if another 8 ounce will fix the scope issue, it seems like the logical answer. Some purists surely won't like it but frankly, they never do like any changes. Like you though, I think the scopes and repairs eventually leave far worse options and I've never felt like those few ounces are a real game changer for records purposes. Unless a mfg will offer a light 6x scope, I don't see many long term options
 
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I'm new to this venue of shooting so bear with me if its been tried and failed.
Consider changing the the schedule around a little bit
ie Nationals
Day one---Hunter 100
Day two--VFS 100
Day three--VFS 200
Day four--Hunter 200

This might get the VFS shooters to at least try Hunter at 100
Most of us go to a match to shoot--the more shooting the happier the shooter??

This schedule would be make the target crew happier with only 1 target board change

I think the Hunter class bring out the best challenge to the shooter.
This class is not equipment driven as some venues. ??????

6 power scopes are available but their all used and no new ones.
New variable scopes taped at 6 power are allowed per rules.

The good/great shooters will excell with the present restrictions.

For those who want to shoot perfect scores on all targets will not gravitate to Hunter Class.

Just my thoughts and not a soluttion
Starting my 2nd year shooting Hunter Class

CLP
 
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I'm new to this venue of shooting so bear with me if its been tried and failed.
Consider changing the the schedule around a little bit
ie Nationals
Day one---Hunter 100
Day two--VFS 100
Day three--VFS 200
Day four--Hunter 200

This might get the VFS shooters to at least try Hunter at 100
Most of us go to a match to shoot--the more shooting the happier the shooter??

This schedule would be make the target crew happier with only 1 target board change

I think the Hunter class bring out the best challenge to the shooter.
This class is not equipment driven as some venues. ??????

6 power scopes are available but their all used and no new ones.
New variable scopes taped at 6 power are allowed per rules.

The good/great shooters will excell with the present restrictions.

For those who want to shoot perfect scores on all targets will not gravitate to Hunter Class.

Just my thoughts and not a soluttion
Starting my 2nd year shooting Hunter Class

CLP
If you adopted that Format, I suspect a lot Of VFS shooters would just stay home.keep in mind, 99% of HBR shooters also shoot VFS, but only about 1/4 of VFS shooters participate in HBR.
I am an avid VFS shooter and as I said, I have no desire to shoot HBR.
But then, I also shoot Group.

Joe mentioned that VFS was not as popular as was hoped for. Maybe not at the Registered Match Level, but the vast majority of clubs that hold frequent Club Matches are shooting the VFS Format.

For instance, at Tomball, we have four Club Matches where we shoot the VFS format and we have good attendance, mainly because our Club Match Rules allow any legal firearm to be used in the top class, which we simply call “the Benchrest Class.”.
 
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Just thinking but if another 8 ounce will fix the scope issue, it seems like the logical answer. Some purists surely won't like it but frankly, they never do like any changes. Like you though, I think the scopes and repairs eventually leave far worse options and I've never felt like those few ounces are a real game changer for records purposes. Unless a mfg will offer a light 6x scope, I don't see many long term options
Or do like they did at CMP matches and use your variable scope and have it taped to 6x and initialed by a match official. It's easy to see if the tape has been tampered with.
 
I've said this on other threads... To bring new people into this sport, you need to figure out a way to entice people into trying it out without the $6k price tag.

But also you need to solve this problem:

If benchrest nationals are like the Indy 500, where does a new guy go to drive a go cart to get the feeling of this game?

In keeping with that metaphor, new classes of benchrest are created to entice new shooters, but then you immediately have a slew of Indy 500 drivers hopping on those go carts and racing on that track. No FNG is going to want to get into that race.

It comes back to what @jxb was talking about. You have to approach and view this like a new shooter. If you try and accommodate new and old shooters, it will never work efficiently. In what ever game you come up with for new shooters, you have to prioritize that new blood over yet another game for the veterans to play.
 
The class came into being a long time ago and at this point, the 6X scope is sort of the defining feature. And what makes it a challenging class to shoot. And there is currently another class where you can shoot any scope you want. Varmint for Score or VFS for shorthand. So there is no reason to get rid of the scope rule entirely for this class. That would just be eliminating the class. I say, Shoot em both. double your fun!
Joe, I think a lot of us, myself included, have slipped into a bad habit of using VFS as if it describes an equipment class, when what we should be using is “Heavy Varmint” (HV), or “Hunter” (HTR). With all due respect for all those who have been doing this way longer than I have, within the score matches category in both the NBRSA and IBS rules, there are currently only two equipment classes, Heavy Varmint and Hunter. VFS describes the scoring method and is not an equipment class name.

Now about some of the comments from others about getting with the times, etc. I think some may be missing the reason for even having an HTR class. The reason is to have something that’s different. The scope power limit, lighter equipment weight requirement, and narrower forearm all combine to make it different. The more we change the rules in the direction of the HV class, the less different they are. If people want a scope with larger diameter objective lenses and higher quality glass, I believe there are other means where they can lower their rifle weight to allow them to use a heavier scope, for example fluted barrels. I would rather minimize changes to the equipment class rules. Personally I want the HTR class to remain different from HV, for if it’s not very different from HV, why do we need both? This topic reminds me of a famous speech from September 12, 1962:

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, …

I think we have forgotten where to look to find the best shooters among us, just look to see who won the HTR class at 200 (or 300) yards!

I like the other ideas to attract new shooters, but not watering down the equipment rules.
 
Rule and or equipment changes aren't the answer, they have already been done by creating the Varmint Hunter class. Yes, it brought a few more shooters to the line but not many. When I decided to give Hunter class a try, I found a complete rifle package right here on the classifieds and it only took a couple of weeks of watching.
Since the end of last season there have been a few 6x scopes listed, so they are out there.
The big problem is most people want INSTANT gratification and that isn't going to happen, it takes PRACTICE and a lot of it to do O.K., and for most that just isn't good enough. Personally, I don't need to win because I just like to shoot win or lose, and spend the day with friends at the range, but that is just me.
As for increasing the numbers at matches I've talked to people at the range and the biggest complaint after cost of equipment is the time needed to shoot a match. Young and older alike all say they don't have a full day or two to spend at a match, those who shoot high power like the fact that they can shoot a match and be home by 1:00 PM, have shot their match and have time to do their stuff around the house with time left in the day to spend with family or friends.
Unfortunately, there is no easy solutions and I fear it is a dying sport.
 
I began shooting Benchrest in the late '90's because my local range had a team in the TCL Postal Matches. My first season was with a 243 Ackley with the variable turned down to 6X. With some excellent mentors (Randy Robinett, Lynn Hansen and Jim Minnig) and a 'smith that liked the challenge (Stan Ware) by the next season that gun had morphed into a real Hunter class rig. From there, I started traveling to registered NBRSA and IBS tournaments in my part of the country and to several IBS and NBRSA National events around the country (New York, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Kansas.....). I added a VFS rig a year or two later. I stepped away in 2013 to return to drag racing. In late 2020, I sold my race operation and put together a VFS gun. Now for the 2024 season, I've built a Hunter class gun. So I've come around in a circle but went the opposite direction this time. :)

I'm in favor of upping the Hunter weight to 10.5 lbs simply due to the scope issue. The extra weight allowance opens the door for many current variables to be used. That's a simple common sense rule change that everyone can get behind.

The problem isn't the cost of equipment....one look at the PRS world tells you that. My personal thought is that Benchrest itself (IBS/NBRSA, etc) is ridiculous when it comes to the awarding of cash and/or prizes to the winners and top placers. Let's face it, we all enjoy the bit of respect we get from our peers when we do well. And if the winner of a yardage, a Grand or the Two Gun goes home with nothing more than respect and a handful of awards, that's what we've come to accept.

But that doesn't cut it with a new generation looking for a shooting sport to compete in.

Rather than blah-blahing on about this, let's see if this stimulates some conversation. Either pro or con is fine with me. My skin isn't particularly thin. ;)

Good shootin' :) -Al
 
Long time IBS competitor in the NE shooting both VFS and HC. For those who don't know, Hunter Class was created to establish a formal competition for the typical hunter - big game = Hunter, varmint = Varmint Hunter, so that the typical hunter could compete with his factory rifle (typically a .308 for Hunter) with a typical low power scope using simple sand-filled shot bags from a fixed bench at a fixed short range 100,200, & 300 yds. It was a simple concept-shoot at 5 separate bulls for each relay which avoided the moving backer as needed for group shooting. It started off simple , but ended up with rules that conflicted with it's original intent- to attract shooters with basic equipment they already have. IMHO when custom actions were allowed, it killed the class. Where HC shooters outnumbered VFS 3 years previous, most elected to switch to VFS or quit competition.
Here in the NE (with the exception of Maine) it is dead with VFS barely holding it's own. I used to shoot both VFS and HC, but the last couple years the shooter numbers have declined to where we just barely get enough for 1 relay. The past couple years I shot HC almost always as the sole HC competitor. Why? It's the level of difficulty that comes with a 6x scope and the 10 # gun. When you shoot a decent score you get satisfaction that you earned it the hard way. When fellow VFS shooters shoot a HC gun they invariably say "How the #&%$ do you manage to hit anything with this set-up? Must be an acquired taste.
 
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