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How to explain bullet arc............ at the bar.

Two shooting friends and I were discussing the strong winds at a recent 600 yard F-Class match. The wind flags were on high poles (35 feet?) but my lane on the far left side of the course was protected by a row of tall trees. The grass indicated a much weaker wind at low altitudes with some wind reversal relative to the wind flags. I commented that my bullets never got up into the strong winds since the maximum arc half way to the target was only 28" above the line of sight.

They objected and everyone immediately pulled out their smart phones and opened their favorite ballistics app. They claimed that I MUST be wrong. Surely my bullets fly higher than 28 inches above my line of sight. They argued since if I were to zero my rifle at 100 yards and then aim at the X at 600 yards, the bullets would hit almost exactly 6 feet low. In other words the "drop", or the "come ups" as we rednecks say, is right around 6 feet at 600 yards.

That much is true according to everyone's ballistics apps. Everyone argued that if the "drop" at 600 yards is 6 feet, that in order for the bullet to hit the X at 600 yards it must arc up roughly 6 feet above the line of sight. I must admit that that doesn't sound obviously wrong at first blush.

My app is was the only one which showed the bullet path at various ranges, both in a chart and as a graphic display of the arc, but they weren't convinced, insisting that my app is simply wrong even though the apps they were using showed only the "drop"; i.e. the required scope adjustment. These guys are experienced shooters and for many years they have been believing that the "drop" is not only how much they must adjust their scopes, but also an indication of how high the bullet arcs above the line of sight for medium/long range target shooting.

The manual calculation for this is a little bit tedious and not at all intuitive (except to math majors) since it involves launch-angle tangents and a cosine function raised to the second power in the denominator. I've studied enough math and engineering to pound through it and prove that my app is correct; i.e. the actual apogee of a bullet hitting the 600 yard X is much less than what most shooters refer to as "drop" required to adjust the POA from a 100 yd zero to the required scope setting at 600 yards.

However, my shooting pals aren't much interested in talking about tangents and cosines, especially while drinking beer. I confess I was at a loss to explain this in simple every-day terms sufficient to convince my pals why the top of the arc of a hit on the X was much less than the "drop" at 600 yards. I just couldn't think of any simple analogy, like throwing baseballs, which made my argument easy to understand.

How can I explain a ballistic arc to people if their educational background consisted mostly Sex, Drugs, and Rock-N-Roll?
 
If the bullet had eyes it would see about half the drop above LOS. Show them a flight graph with a 500 yard zero, 1000 yard target
 
I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to simplify complicated explanations. The reality is, there's a limit to how far some things can be simplified and still convey the idea; some things are just plain complicated.

But in this case, I think there's a way. See attached image of 'napkin drawing' (using only tools you'll have at your disposal in the bar :) )

The explanation goes as follows, using rough numbers to convey idea...

We agree that you need about 12 MOA elevation to hit at 600 yards, which corrects for 6 feet of drop at 600 yards.

Consider what that means, it means that you have to elevate the bore-line over the line of sight (LOS) by 6 feet at 600 yards (see drawing).

Because we're dealing in triangles, the bore line is only elevated 3' over the line of sight at 300 yards.

The line of sight, and the bore line are straight lines. We haven't talked about the bullet path yet.

Here is the key; the bullet path begins parallel to the bore line, but then gravity pulls the bullet path down, away from the boreline. In other words, the bullet path falls away from the bore line. So after 100 yards, the bullet path is always underneath the bore-line. So if the boreline is 3' above the LOS at 300 yards, that means the bullet path (trajectory) is less than 3' over the LOS. The bullet path continues to fall further away from the bore line until 600 yards where it's fallen away by 6', and intersects your LOS on the target face.

After 100 yards (your zero range), the bullet path is never as high as the bore-line because it's continually falling away, falling down where it will intersect the LOS at the target.

This explanation, along with the drawing, is the best I can do.

Try explaining it the same way after each round of shots, eventually the stars will align and they'll get it. If not, just get them super hammered so they forget details, then 'remind' them in the morning that they had agreed with you last night. Pretty sure this is how my wife secured my 'agreement' on several occasions.

Good luck!
-Bryan
 

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I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to simplify complicated explanations. The reality is, there's a limit to how far some things can be simplified and still convey the idea; some things are just plain complicated.

But in this case, I think there's a way. See attached image of 'napkin drawing' (using only tools you'll have at your disposal in the bar :) )

The explanation goes as follows, using rough numbers to convey idea...

We agree that you need about 12 MOA elevation to hit at 600 yards, which corrects for 6 feet of drop at 600 yards.

Consider what that means, it means that you have to elevate the bore-line over the line of sight (LOS) by 6 feet at 600 yards (see drawing).

Because we're dealing in triangles, the bore line is only elevated 3' over the line of sight at 300 yards.

The line of sight, and the bore line are straight lines. We haven't talked about the bullet path yet.

Here is the key; the bullet path begins parallel to the bore line, but then gravity pulls the bullet path down, away from the boreline. In other words, the bullet path falls away from the bore line. So after 100 yards, the bullet path is always underneath the bore-line. So if the boreline is 3' above the LOS at 300 yards, that means the bullet path (trajectory) is less than 3' over the LOS. The bullet path continues to fall further away from the bore line until 600 yards where it's fallen away by 6', and intersects your LOS on the target face.

After 100 yards (your zero range), the bullet path is never as high as the bore-line because it's continually falling away, falling down where it will intersect the LOS at the target.


Good luck!
-Bryan
100% correct. Just remember the apex of the arc will be after the midway point
 
I like Bryan's explanation, The way I have explained it to people who ask why I only need about 10 feet as an apex on the trajectory for 1000 yards where the drop from 100 yards is almost 29 feet is simply to say that for the first 650 yards or so, the bullet is rising, not falling. It's only coming down for the last 350 yards or so and still travelling supersonically. So it drops 10 feet or so in the last 350 yards.

If I was shooting perfectly horizontally, the bullet would start dropping as soon as it left the muzzle and would be falling for the entire flight, which would be rather short.
 
Thanks Bryan. That helps. I took the ballistics data from my app and loaded the data into Excel and graphed the data at 20 yard increments. Two shots at 600 yards, the lower one (dark red) with a 100 yd zero and the upper one (blue) with a 600 yd zero.

Then, using Photoshop, I duplicated and rotated the 100 yd shot up to overlay the conventional 600 yard shop. The arcs are nearly identical, but not exact for the same reason a shot made straight up or straight up doesn't arc, neglecting minor effects.
Photoshop path

You can see that the distance between the bullet arc and the line of sight of the two shots is nearly the same, or at least as close as I can measure it on a small graph in Photoshop.

Said another way, if you shot an X at the 100 yard target, that same bullet could continue on and score a second X at 600 yards if the distant target were mounted 78.9" below the line-of-sight. The distance between that bullet arc and the L.O.S. to the lower target is nearly identical to the conventional 600 yard target level with the rifle, with slight deviations caused by the differences in launch angle and perhaps, in this case, the scale of my chart.

Now I just gotta' show this chart to my friends. I suspect they'll be more likely to believe it if I pay for the beers.
 
Awwww sugar Bryan..........I thought I had a reasonably logical and clear mental image of this. Only and ONLY b/c of your creds am I not blowing a gasket. I'm not sure I'll ever understand where you're coming from or the OP for that matter. It is totally counter intuitive to me. Hope I don't lay awake at night losing sleep over this......I'm just shaking my hoary head. Semi basic math isn't a stumbling block for me, used a lot of Trig in the shop over the years, even taught it on occasion, class room setting or on the floor.

I'll be revisiting this post for at least a while so don't any of you guys get all hissy fitted over anything to where it gets pulled - OK? ;-)
 
This thread brings back memories of my first 1,000 yard match back in the Spring of 2008.

I learned that Pella, Iowa had a 1,000 yard range and that they had a “Factory Class”. The range was about 3 hours from my home in western Illinois. I had a Rem 700 VS in .308 and a Rem Sendero in 7-Rem Mag. My choice was the Sendero, shooting a 162 grain A-Max. @ 2850-2900 f.p.s.

I had faith in the Sierra Infinity Ballistics program and printed the following chart. This program worked for my .223 and 69 gr. MK’s in a 600 yd match in the past. (Colt HBAR) , so I used it for my Sendero load with the Hornady A-Max bullet.

My home target had an “aiming bull” and 28” above it was another “impact bullseye”. The neighbor was watching me do this and questioned my sanity! He couldn’t believe that if I impacted only 28” high at 100 yards, that I’d be able to hit a target at over “half-a-mile” away! It is hard to wrap your head around until you consider that the bullet is still rising until it gets to over 550 yards, then starts coming back down.

The enclosed printout of my trajectory seemed to convince him. This is from the Sierra program. When I got to the Pella range on a rainy Friday afternoon, there were two gentlemen standing under the range canopy. They were Gordy Gritters and Bob Pastor (a.k.a., the Viper). The two were kind enough to spot for me and help me with my zero. It was remarkably close!

amax at 2850.jpg
 
This thread brings back memories of my first 1,000 yard match back in the Spring of 2008.

I learned that Pella, Iowa had a 1,000 yard range and that they had a “Factory Class”. The range was about 3 hours from my home in western Illinois. I had a Rem 700 VS in .308 and a Rem Sendero in 7-Rem Mag. My choice was the Sendero, shooting a 162 grain A-Max. @ 2850-2900 f.p.s.

I had faith in the Sierra Infinity Ballistics program and printed the following chart. This program worked for my .223 and 69 gr. MK’s in a 600 yd match in the past. (Colt HBAR) , so I used it for my Sendero load with the Hornady A-Max bullet.

My home target had an “aiming bull” and 28” above it was another “impact bullseye”. The neighbor was watching me do this and questioned my sanity! He couldn’t believe that if I impacted only 28” high at 100 yards, that I’d be able to hit a target at over “half-a-mile” away! It is hard to wrap your head around until you consider that the bullet is still rising until it gets to over 550 yards, then starts coming back down.

The enclosed printout of my trajectory seemed to convince him. This is from the Sierra program. When I got to the Pella range on a rainy Friday afternoon, there were two gentlemen standing under the range canopy. They were Gordy Gritters and Bob Pastor (a.k.a., the Viper). The two were kind enough to spot for me and help me with my zero. It was remarkably close!

View attachment 991444

OK, I wasn't understanding what was being conveyed.
I have used the same methodology to qual for long range cert. at my old home club. Got into the drop charts and used 50 yds to get me on paper at range.
 
The only arc that a bullet has is from gravity. A bullet starts to fall toward the ground from the instant it leaves the barrel.
A good example of this is to roll a ball off the end of a table. That is what a bullet does too. Another example is water coming out of the end of a garden hose.
The only reason you see a bullet rise in the charts is because the barrel is pointed up at an angle.
Bullets do not rise when they leave the muzzle. If that were true then one could shoot around corners by simply turning the gun sideways.
Wolfdawg
 
Everybody sees when you are holding off target for the wind, that the wind moves the bullet's path from where you are aiming to the target. Clearly the path taken is not where you are aiming. Substitute gravity for wind.
 
I like Bryan's explanation, The way I have explained it to people who ask why I only need about 10 feet as an apex on the trajectory for 1000 yards where the drop from 100 yards is almost 29 feet is simply to say that for the first 650 yards or so, the bullet is rising, not falling. It's only coming down for the last 350 yards or so and still travelling supersonically. So it drops 10 feet or so in the last 350 yards.

If I was shooting perfectly horizontally, the bullet would start dropping as soon as it left the muzzle and would be falling for the entire flight, which would be rather short.

This is how I was thinking about it also, when you adjust up, the bullet climbs part way and then falls back down
 
This is how I was thinking about it also, when you adjust up, the bullet climbs part way and then falls back down
Yeah, and saying that a bullet doesn't rise coming out of a barrel is somewhat misleading because in many (most) cases it does, and when that occurs, it is not starting to fall immediately. If that was the case all the time, our shooting ranges would be very short or we would have to shoot at the edge of a cliff to get any distance at all. The grand canyon would definitely by the mecca of long distance shooting at that point. But instead of walking to the pits or the target line, we would use stairs or elevators.
 
Bayou
If the bullet rises coming out of the barrel, then what happens when you turn the rifle sideways? Can you shoot around corners?
The ballistic charts show the the bullet "rising" because the barrel is pointed above a zero degree angle upward.
A rifle that is parallel to the ground will have a bullet IMMEDIATELY start to drop once it exits the barrel.
Unless bullets are being made from some new anti gravity material these days.
Wolfdawg
 

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