How stiff is too stiff on closing a bolt on jammed bullets

[djtjr]

Guys I have a gun that is in the same chambering as another gun I have, I wanted to see if I could use the same dies and I built up a load. It just happens that the best load is the same as my other gun but the seating depth jam is a bit more as I guess one reamer is a bit different than the other. The bolt will close on the new gun but it does take some pressure to do so the jam is prob .015-.02 A opposed to .005 on my other gun.
Anyway my question is how much presure is too much when closing a bolt? I can do it with one hand but I do need to sort of pinch it down if it were a repeater it wouldn't be easy to run a fast string. Can this cause damage to the lugs if there is pressure but it's not crazy? If the load shoots great should I leave it or seat the bullets deeper to avoid this. Assuming no presure after shooting can I be damaging the lugs closing it a bit tight? Any thresholds for how tight is too tight? Thanks in advance.
Don

 

[jkohler]

Are you shire its not the shoulders needing bumed back for the new rifle? I Have never had a bolt hard to close on a round that is a jam leanth.

 

[djtjr]

Yes it's not a tight neck brass is full length sized and chambers easily without a bullet I am certain it's the jam length

 

[1066]

I guess it depends on the design of the bolt - I would think the weak point on something like a Savage bolt head would be where the bolt head retaining pin goes through - this sort of fitting is not really designed for excessive radial pressure.

My concern would be that you may think you have a 20 thou jam but in fact you are actually seating the bullet a deeper but variable amount depending on neck tension.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Are you shire its not the shoulders needing bumed back for the new rifle?..

+1. I think you are trying to take a short cut for a long hard road. I would be really surprised if the chambers are exactly the same. I would suggest that one chamber is shorter than the other and therefore your resizing die won't resize for them both without adjustment. I would suggest setting your die up for the shorter chamber and then use Skip's die shims to accommodate the longer chamber.

Good luck. JCS

 

[fguffey]

Mistakes have been made, shooters form bad habits, in my opinion one bad habits is chambering a round that offers resistance to bolt closing, an 8mm57 will chamber in a 30/06 with resistance to bolt closing. In central North Texas a shooter? volunteered to zero a rifle for a friend, the shooter assumed it was a 308 W, the rifle was a 25/06, so, I suggest the shooter determine the reason for bolt closing resistance before pulling the trigger.

Again, I determine the length of the chamber first from the bolt face to the shoulder/datum of the chamber in thousands, again, I make tools, everyone else purchases tools from any number of on line reloading distributors.

I will not assume you are familiar with tools that are designed to measure the length of a case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder, manufactures call them head space gages, I call them comparators, I make comparators, I use comparators to compare the dimensions of one case with the dimensions of another case, the difference will indicate if there is press fit/interference fit between the chamber and length of the case, again, I measure the length of the chamber first.

Comparator? You have fired cases? With a comparator compare the difference in length of the fired cases with the new and or reloaded ammo, you can get all the encouragement you need when seating the bullet into lands you need, back to resistance to bolt closing, I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullet to have a jump before it hits the lands, I have nothing to gain by forcing the bolt closed, if I find I have resistance to bolt closing I must know why, I must know what is causing the resistance. In my opinion there is no good reason, and, there are a few reasons for resistance to bolt closing that are bad.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Again, I would suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder/datum of the case, I would suggest you skip Skip’s shims until you understood the effect the shims have on sizing.

Skip’s shims require the die to be removed from the press each time an adjustment is made, and that takes us all back to assuming adding the shims has an effect on sizing, remember all of these bench resters secure the lock nut to the die, but, if you do get in line and purchase another tool learn to verify adjustments and learn to use a comparator, I use the standard, the transfer, the validator, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, If I used skips shims I would find it necessary to use a dial caliper or height gage, but I have never found it necessary to use Skip’s shims.

The press and die have threads, to use skips shims the die must be indexed at the same place every time or we go back to making wild guestimates of a turn of the die on degrees of a turn or fractions turns converted to thousandths, so, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I adjust the die to the shell holder or off the shell holder then secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

fguffey

If you don't own any headspacing shims or custom shell holders how in the heck can you say anything negitive about them. Some of us prefer not to use your "magic" feeler gauges jambed into the shell holder.

Again you have brown eyes and and the world doesn't revolve around your reloading methods. :

 

[fguffey]

Ed, about the time I did not think your response could not get dumber, you response got dumber. How do you do that?



DJTJR says he is having trouble with resistance to bolt closing, he does not know the length of the chamber, he does not know the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the chamber.

Adding Skip’s shims will increase the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, purchasing Redding’s Competition shell are + shell holders, the Redding shell holders are design to increase the length of the case from .002 thousands to .010 thousandths in increments of .002 thousandths. And, still you insist on selling someone something they may not need and or do not understand, again, I form cases that are .012 thousandths shorter from the head of the case to it’s shoulder/datum than a minimum length/full length sized case, in thousandths I form cases that are .014 thousandths longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, that is 26 different length cases without Skip’s shims or Redding competition shell holder and that is without grinding a shell holder and or the bottom of the die.

Again, I cut chambers without a go-gage, I do not shoot gages, and as I said I check head space three different ways, 2 of the three ways do not require a head space gage.

Ed. Do you feel threatened or challenged? You need to put some of your conceit aside, and think, Ed. you need to think, DJTJR needs to know if his cases are too long and he wants to know which of the two chambers is the longest. Again, I make comparators, if you are my neighbor I am willing to take the time to help you, but, first you should learn to concentrate, showing off is bad habit and something you should have learned to control before you left the house.

I have Redding shell holders, they are not in increments of .002 thousandths, there is a discrepancy of .003 between two of them and 3 of them are off, but, that stuff does not lock me up, my presses and dies have threads, it is not necessary for me to purchase tools I do not need, tools that are nice but not required.

F. Guffey

 

[MGYSGT]

I am guessing, that unless your brass has thick necks, jamming into the lands of the barrel won't give that much resistance. Certainly not what you describe. My vote, goes to the resizing of the cartridge shoulder when closing the bolt. It may only be a thousandth, but that is all it takes.

Tom

 

[NorCalMikie]

His reply #2 states,"It's not a tight neck, brass is full length resized and chambers easily without a bullet"!
Maybe just the OAL of the round? You guys are making it too complicated. Start from scratch.
Build a dummy round with the bullet seated deep in the neck. If it chambers, the neck is OK.
If it's stiff on closing the bolt, there's a problem with the brass.
Neck too fat?
Start seating the bullet longer in the case till you start getting bolt closing resistance. KISS!

 

[260Ravage]

If the neck is good to go,I'd also recommend Skips die shims on the resizing die. I have two 6brs and must use the shims for a perfect headspace. I keep each rifle's brass separated. I'd bet on the headpace as the problem.

 

[jo191145]

First tip, Use grease on those lugs not oil

I see no problems with using shims although I don't own any.

The problem I see is your hesitancy to adjust your seater die between the two different rifles at will.
I would need to assume your not lazy but lack the knowledge and or tools to make accurate measurements repeatedly. No offense meant. We've all been there at one time.
Guffy is correct in that area. ??? Whatever is driving you to keep those dies locked in one position needs to be addressed.

You need the ability to measure base of cartridge to a fixed point on the bullets ogive.
You also need the ability to measure from base of cartridge to a fixed datum point on the shoulders to set up your FL dies correctly for both chambers.
Chances of them being the same are slim. Over sizing is never a good idea. Following generic die instructions isn't either.
Once you have that capability it will all be so much simpler.
You'll probably need a specific amount of shimmage for your seater and another, hopefully smaller increment for your FL die.
Once you have the tools and knowledge the shims might be an easy method or you can decide to use another method entirely.


Mr Guffy, you really find the lock rings on your dies unrepeatable? Really?
While I favor Hornadys split ring machined surface over Reddings style I've never had any problem locking either down and maintaining headspace exactly where I wanted it.
Sometimes as brass hardens you may find a need to reset for correct bump but thats another can of worms. I hand tighten my dies and thats it. Once met a fella that used a pipe wrench, no lie, I can see that throwing some error in the mix.

 

[Old Navy]

djtjr, what caliber and bullet are you loading. Later! Frank