How do you know when a barrel is past it's prime and needs replacing?

[r bose]

I've been shooting XTC for years and now I find myself shooting more prone/sling 600 yard matches. I plan on shooting several 1000 yd 2 day weekend matches this year. My question relates to barrel wear/bullet stability.

A friend posted on the main message board that he brought a rifle to the SW Berger nationals that was shooting .8xx inch (.4xx MOA) groups at 200 yds before he left but at 800, 900, 1000 the rifle did not perform well at all. Myself, without having a borescope or access to one, and having only 200 yards to test groups etc., how would I know when a barrel is gone?

Would I go by round count on the barrel, throat erosion, groups at 600 yds during a match (I'm shooting in a sling so their's a human element to contend with here), or is their any other method to determine WHEN to replace.

How does a barrel shoot well at 100 or 200 yards and not well at 600/800/900/1000 yards? Feels like I should know the answer to this question but I don't. With a barrel replacement costing 600 dollars (barrel and gun smithing charges), I don't want to replace a tube unnecessarily nor do I want to have a problem at a big match.

In the XTC world you called Hollinger, ordered a $200 replacement AR barrel and put it on in your garage. I can't do that with a bolt gun. I hope I've posted this question in the proper forum. It is directly about bullet stability?

Any insight greatly appreciated.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If the barrel shoots that good at 200 then it's not the barrel but the load that's an issue. I replace my barrels when they copper foul real bad. Barrels also lose speed in my experience when they are shot out.

 

[r bose]

Erik, lets assume he had a load that shot well at 1000 yds. He retested at 200 yds before a big match to confirm his rifle was still shooting well and got good results. So what is happening inside the barrel that would make it shoot well at 200 yds but poorly at 1000?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik, lets assume he had a load that shot well at 1000 yds. He retested at 200 yds before a big match to confirm his rifle was still shooting well and got good results. So what is happening inside the barrel that would make it shoot well at 200 yds but poorly at 1000?

My point is that it's not the barrel but the load. What is his ES on this load?

 

[wolley]

I think we're talking about my rifle?
I tested it 500 rds ago and all was good. 10 shot .844" group at 200. ES' were right at 21. Velocity was good. Higher in fact(new lot of Varget)
The barrel has been showing copper for about the last 1500rds and it never had before.
It shot only OK for the Palma matches at Phoenix. I ran it over to the Hawkeye tent and did a thorough inspection. It was beyond just bad. Severe erosion in the throat area with chunks out of the throat to lead transition. About two inches in I found an eroded spot about the diameter of a land. Inclusion in the steel?
The firecracking extended for as far as the borescope would reach. After seeing this I doubted the barrel would make the weekend. It didn't. Saturday it began shooting even worse and Sunday it went completely Tango Uniform. Shooting a 179 and 180.
I am not going to waste anymore powder in this tube. New Bartlien is inbound and should be here on the 24th.
At the time of the Berger match I thought I was sitting 4,000.
When I got home and backtracked through the bullets bought over the last 3 years it was apparent that the round count is a little over 5,000.

 

[r bose]

Yes Wes it's Robert, we shot together in the Friday team match last fall in Houston. I was shooting my 6xc. Sorry to hear about your troubles. I don't own a borescope either and have no way of inspecting a bore.

So from what Erik said, you probably should have been looking into a new barrel 1500 rounds ago when the copper became evident? I guess for us that don't own a scope, it's our best option. Assuming the firecracking is peeling off the bullet jacket causing copper fouling and probably not helping accuracy.

But to your point Wes, it would be hard for me to pull a barrel that's still shooting .844" groups at 200 yds. So now what?

Anybody rent borescopes?

 

[wolley]

On the other thread the Lyman electronic borescope is mentioned.
I'm waiting on that.
As far as my barrel in its current condition. I'm reasonably sure it wouldn't shoot .844" group at 50 yards. It was shooting wide 8s with an occasional excursion out into 7 territory on Sunday at Ben Avery.

 

[Bob Sebold]

When you start questioning the barrel, replace it. Keep the old one, if new one doesn't shoot better, then it must be something else, but you did not waste your money as it will shoot out sooner or later. I have 6 7mm barrels on my shelf, got two new ones for last match, only used one. I will shoot some older ones at local matches and save new barrels for big matches. Like vintage cars or fine cigars, you cannot have to many!

 

[dwcon]

Should get my bore scope today check out Larry Willis .com DW

 

[Bob L.]

Robert,

I have a Hawkeye you can use. I'll be at Palo Alto tomorrow if you'll be there. If not, let me know the next time you will be. Maybe the regional match in March?

Bob Lundholm

 

[conor m]

wes ,going to a major compition with a barrel with 3000 + rounds is always going to end indisaster .years ago palma shooters would talk about the high round count on their barrels and to day we dont take into account the fact that bullets are being pushed faster which also equaits to faster barrel wear . as on another post barrels are like tyres , they wear out !!!!! . if i travel to a major match and there is more than 5 hours travel one way , i bring a spare barrel .

all the best conor murphy .

 

[wolley]

wes ,going to a major compition with a barrel with 3000 + rounds is always going to end indisaster .years ago palma shooters would talk about the high round count on their barrels and to day we dont take into account the fact that bullets are being pushed faster which also equaits to faster barrel wear . as on another post barrels are like tyres , they wear out !!!!! . if i travel to a major match and there is more than 5 hours travel one way , i bring a spare barrel .

all the best conor murphy .

Between that and bailing out of my truck in Van Horn, Tx with it idling and discovering I had missed park, I learned valuable lessons.

 

[AussieMike]

Change the barrel as soon as you lose faith in it. You can measure any dimension you like, if you suspect that the barrel is not up to par, then your sub conscience will not allow you to shoot well with it. Time for a new one, regardless.
Your sub conscience has more control over how you perform than most people either realise or admit.
You have all heard the excuse "my rifle does not like this range".
Regards
Mike

 

[jvw2008]

Ignorance can provide bliss - suspicion is sure to generate stress! I started using a Larry Wilson bore scope a year ago. It radically changed my cleaning protocol and when I go to the bench I'm confident I know the visual status of my barrel. Just in peace-of-mind, the scope paid for itself in a very short time. If you don't use a bore scope routinely, there's a possibility your current state of bliss is due to ignorance. Note: I did not just say if you don't have a bore scope you are ignorant! I am saying if you have even periodic access to one (gunsmith, fellow shooter, etc) it's really worth doing a thorough bore inspection occasionally.

Jerry

 

[KevinThomas]

Have to say, as useful as borescopes are, I've never really found them to be of great benefit when determining bore life. When I first started using them, I found they just as often left me wondering why a particular barrel had stopped performing as it did wondering why another was still shooting. There simply seemed to be no direct correlation between the amount of cracking and erosion visible in a barrel and whether or not that barrel was still "shooting."

Performance is the bottom line, and logbooks are tremendously useful here. For my purposes, a barrel chambered for 308 Win was good for about 3,000 rounds. As I neared or exceeded that point, I began looking for flyers. These high-mileage barrels continue to shoot outstandingly small groups, but those flyers will become more pronounced, more frequent, and wander farther and farther from the group. At that point, I pulled them since it wasn't worth my time or the aggravation of having to refire (QC control) that particular group again.

 

[Canadian bushman]

Ive looked at barrels with borescopes at times and wondered how they ever shot decent groups.

I had a 308 barrel with about 2500-3000 rounds through it that just looked aweful but shot great. I think i put another 1000 rounds through it before it really started to open groups and foul very heavily.

Not to say that scoping a barrel doesnt offer useful info, just agreeing with Mr Thomas that they dont tell everything.