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How do you dope for powder temperature?

Was at the range today and shot the same three loads as last week. However, it was cold and temperature on average during the shoot was 20 deg. F lower. Velocity dropped by an average of 60 fps. That is more than enough to take my loads out of the sweet spot.

So how do you compensate for this, and predict it ahead of time? The powder was Varget in a 6BR with 68 grain bullets. My understanding is that Varget is relatively temperature insensitive, and other powders may be worse. I've heard in hot weather some keep their ammo in coolers. Should I be bringing a "cooler" that has hot packs in it to keep my ammo warm? Or, do you load more or less powder depending on the temperature you expect?
 
That is interesting that varget is temp insensitive.I have read numerous posts to the contrary.I dont know myself,not using it much in the 6br.I tried it and it shot horrible with the 68 grainers.I went back to the tried and true h322.It shoots well in all temps for me.I guess it works better with the heavier bullets.I would try h322 and give it a try.
 
I have tried H322, but do not have comparable loads at different temperatures to say how sensitive or not sensitive it is. Comparing it side by side to Varget, always seems to have Varget coming out ahead for accuracy. It may be just in my head, but I think a full case of powder can have some benefits. H322 seems to come short of the shoulder, while Varget (34.3 grains) goes about 1/3 the way up the neck to just about fill the case.

I wonder if the primer may be part of the issue with temperature sensitivity? I'm using BR-4's.
 
RonAKA said:
So how do you compensate for this, and predict it ahead of time?

Very simple: you test it!

What people notice based on air temperature isn't the best indicator of temperature sensitivity. Rounds brought from home in a plastic case, transported in a heated/cooled vehicle will often experience very little change in temperature internally. Unless the rounds are soaked in an exposed manner, at temperature, for at least two hours, you don't really know the powder is at that temperate. The first time I ran this type of test, I put a thermocouple inside a loaded round (without primer) through the primer hole to see how long it took for the internal temperature to be the same as external.

The way the tests works is that you soak 3 batches of ammo at hot, cold and ambient temperature for at least two hours (5 rounds of each). I use a cooler with a heating pad for hot, the freezer in the clubhouse for cold (a cooler with ice works too), and just sit the rounds out in the open for ambient. Temperature is measured with thermocouples and/or mercury thermometers.

You then fire them one round at a time in a round robin sequence (ambient, hot, cold, ambient, hot, cold...). You let the barrel cool in between each shot. When you fire each round, you just transfer that round from the hot/room/cold storage to the chamber and fire it through the chrono as quickly as possible. You don't want to give the rounds any time to change temperature internally due to contact with the chamber. I set the scope on the lowest magnification and just make sure I'm sending the round through the sweet spot of the chrono (no groups here). You basically want to be the Jerry Miculek of loading a boltgun and firing it through a chrono. This is best done on a short pistol range, close to the berm.

If you're interested in the powder's temperature sensitivity, you don't soak the entire rifle, that isn't scientifically correct because you're mixing multiple effects. Thermal expansion/contraction of the barrel due to temperature is a different effect than powder temperature sensitivity. In this test, we are only interested in the powder's effect (primer too, as it cannot be isolated). By using the round robin sequence and letting the barrel cool in between shots, you're removing its temperature effect as a variable in the test. If you then wanted to take it to the level of testing it as a system, you would know how much the powder is contributing. Otherwise, you cannot isolate it from the barrel's effect. Then, you don't know how much each is contributing to the problem.

Here are some 308 Win. results:

308_temp.jpg


It isn't a difficult test to run. However, if you don't have the ability to measure pressure (I do), I would advise putting the heating pad on a lower setting.
 
great info kombayotch!!!! Id say that varget is pretty temperature stable. I dont see a difference from shooting in the morning to 70 rds later in the late afternoon during a tactical competition with varget. 4064 was always at least 1moa by the time the afternoon rolled around. What I have noticed, on two different guns and powders is that first cold bore shot is about 55 fps slower (2700fps) on both guns with the third round stable at 2755fps
 
Thanks kombayotch for sharing the detailed information and the thoughtful response. I have my information which admittedly is not very well controlled. Just same loads shot on two different days, using my usual routine which makes no attempt to control temperature, other than I try to avoid letting the cartridge sit in the chamber too long. However they sit out on the bench in ambient (cold) temperatures prior to chambering. I now have your data also, as well as the Hodgdon data at the link below:

http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page3.php#top

To use a common reference and a straight line approximation. The %velocity change per 100 deg F I calculate as follows:

Hodgdon - 0.03% drop
Your data - 0.63% drop
My data - 8.90% drop

My conclusion is that there seems to be something wrong with my data. While I set my chronograph up the same way using a level to ensure it is horizontal from front to back and side to side, I don't know how consistent it is from set up to set up. I am extrapolating a close temperature measurement 20 deg. F apart by multiplying by 5, so not so sure how linear powder is over shorter temperature ranges?? No idea what they do to powder to make it linear vs temperature...

What I did notice is that the first load I shot when the temperature was lowest lost 84 fps, the next was -54 fps, and the last -44 fps. It seems as the air warmed up, my velocity loss decreased significantly. Total shots measured was 27 for all loads, so I would expect the overall average is statistically significant.

This all said, how do you deal with temperature when you go to shoot for groups? Do you load for the temperature and let the ammo soak to the environment. Or do you try to keep the ammo at a constant temperature and get it into the gun quickly and shoot it?
 
RonAKA said:
This all said, how do you deal with temperature when you go to shoot for groups? Do you load for the temperature and let the ammo soak to the environment. Or do you try to keep the ammo at a constant temperature and get it into the gun quickly and shoot it?

I keep my rounds out in the open, keep the Kestrel handy and the JBM page loaded on my iPhone. Then I just make corrections for the change in ammo velocity as well as other environmental factors as needed. The internal temperature of the powder may be off a bit from ambient (not as much since the rounds are not enclosed), but its the best way of compensating that I have found.
 
Thanks for the response again. Will have to work out a routine, although I am now suspicious of my chronograph accuracy.

Getting back to the impact of the primer on cold velocity loss, I have a link (below) to some primer testing results, which are interesting but no analysis was done on the results. So I did a spreadsheet to see if I could determine the impact of primer type on velocity loss due to cold temperature. I just calculated the average velocity loss by specific primer for all the loads tested. The average loss for all loads and all primers was 2.94%. The lowest loss was the CCI BR-2 at 2.58%. Here is the additional loss of velocity of other primers compared to the BR-2

Primer - Loss
CCI BR-2 - 0.00%
CCI 250 - 0.08%
Win WLR - 0.18%
Fed 210M - 0.46%
Fed 215 - 0.50%
Win WLRM - 0.53%
RWS - 0.79%

CCI seems to be least affected by cold. Since I am using BR-4 primers, it does not appear a primer switch would improve things for me.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/primer.html
 
RonAKA

I'll trade you thermometers, I need one with bigger number now that I'm retired and not checking ammo bunkers anymore.

Keep your ammo under your armpit to keep it a constant temp along with this thermometer. If the thermometer reads too low you are in Alaska or your heart stopped beating. ::)


P.S. If you do keep your ammo under your armpit let me know if your rifle starts to smell bad around the chamber when it gets hot.

IMGP6869.jpg
 
RonAKA,
For whatever this may be worth, I too have noticed that my groups aren't as tight with my 6mmbr using VVN133 pushing 68 gr Bart's bullets when the temps drop significantly. By that I mean that during the summer when I was shooting in upper 80 & 90 degree weather, my 5 shot groups kept tight usually with all holes touching or overlapping. But this past week when the temps were in the 40's & 50's the groups weren't nearly as tight, though I didn't chroni the shots. But I also expected a change because of other changes such as the barrel temperature, air density and ambient temperature in general and the effect it has on the bullet in flight. I admit I didn't even take into consideration of the powder temperature which is probably another variable that is changed even in a finished cartridge. I suspect even that changed from when I loaded it at 68 - 70 degrees to the temperature when I fired the cartridges. So I suspect that unless you do what Benchrest shooters do in competition and that is to load at the range under the temperature conditions you will shoot at, I think your loads are going to react differently regardless if you put the cartridges under your arms pits, put them in a heated compartment or whatever. I have yet to see anyone attach a heating device to preheat the barrel or to keep it at a constant temperature during cold weather shooting. Just my thoughts...that all.
 

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