How accurate should i expect my 6br to be?

[bam1015]

Thanks for all the comments guys, i really appreciate all the help. Let me answer a few questions. First the rifle, a ruger 77 tang safety model with a 23" stainless barrel that is 1.25 at reciever tapering to 7/8th at muzzle , the gentleman i bought it from says it is a Mcmillan barrel, i questioned this because i could not see that Mcmillan did barrels but he assured me he had bought 1/2 dozen barrels from a friend (gunsmith) in California that had bought these from Mcmillan....it is a 14 in 1 twist . It also has one of the sweetest CANJAR set trigers in it that when set is at 2 oz. all he could tell me about the stock is it was custom, I will repost pics of the rig for you to see. The scope is an old Tasco 6-32x50 i know many feel these are junk and it could be a weak point though it has shot well on other guns.
My shooting gear consists of a Rock front rest and a sandbag on rear, the benches where i shoot are very nice concrete with indoor out door carpet on the tops and are covered(super nice for a state owned FREE gunrange)there is 50yd ,100yd and 150 yd ranges here and each is sunk with 15 to 20 ft walls on each side to help contain wind ,and by the way the last 2 weeks ive shot conditions were very mild with almost no wind, i definitly see the need for flags at some point but seriuosly dont think wind was a factor the last couple weeks.

 

[BoydAllen]

Good reply. Now a couple of things....get the back of your pistol grip out of that rear bag and make sure that your front rest points reach through the carpet to concrete. Setting up rests and or bags on things that are not solid is not the best approach....someone who does not shoot benchrest came up with that little improvement. About the wind...seriously, you have no idea. We worry about small amounts of wind that may be imperceptible form the bench, and slight differences in the wind, both of which require FLAGS to see. Most of the time, what you feel at the bench is not what is going on down range. One of the common things that I hear is that someone wants better results without doing anything different. Good luck with that. I test loads and new rifles over flags. If a bullet moves in a way that is not justified by what the flags are telling me (like into the wind) I know that it must be something else. Also, they tell me if there is a very light and switchy condition out there that may mean that testing for very small differences in accuracy, of loads, in a known accurate rifle, should be put off to a better time. Good luck with your rifle. I will be interested in seeing what you are able to do with it. What sort of bedding does it have?

 

[Bob3700]

Just a couple of thoughts.

I would first start by making sure the bbl was not touching the stock in any way. Then, torque your action screws into the stock. If bedded, I would start around 45 inch-lbs.

Take and apply some baby powder to your front and rear bags. That will help the rifle slide in the bags consistently.

Work on the bag alignment, front rest to rear. As the rifle moves forward and aft, it should track from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock, No sideways movement.

Put your front rest on the bare concrete, rear bag as well. Rests and bags need to be solid. Put a fired case in the rifle and practice your firing technique. Are you shooting free recoil or holding onto the rifle?

These questions might best be addressed by reading Tony Boyers book. He is the best benchrest shooter ever and his book is a wealth of information.

Give that a try and see how it works.

Bob

 

[Sully2]

wow, thats some good help...to answer a few of you guys, yes, im new to reloading in general but i do my homework and am very carefull when weighing even double checking....as for the hot load as i said i do my homework and used the load info on this websites 6mmBR cartridge guide which shows several favorite loads with varget like 68 bergers with 34.2 and 74 bergers with 33.3 and 75 VMax with 32.8 so i knew i was on the hot side but didnt think tooo hot ....now as you guys say if 33 is truly too hot some changes need to be made on this website...lol.....i will admit i dont know what primer flattening looks like but i added a photo of one of the spent cartridges so you guys can see,if you can tell by pick , i would appreciate a bit of a schooling on what to look for in stressed cases.....as for dropping way down to 28 gn or so i will say this ,unless it picks back up again there is a noticable accuracy drop from 33 to 32.5 and even worse when i drop to 32 so id think it would be lousy at 28, so maybe i need to be using a different powder? Thanks for the help as ive said i have to put alot of faith in you guys ,i really dont have anywhere else to go.....

Hodgden's site says that 32.5gr is max with that 75 gr bullet. You cant take data at face value...especially off of an internet website......you start lower and work UP to "some number".

Im not working onm loadings with light weight slugs as my 6mmBR ( still at the smiths) is going to be throated for 105-107 weight slugs for max DISTANCE...but I'll most probably load a lot with Varget....but have a canister or two of other to try out.

 

[Tozguy]

Now we are hummin. First class info coming from these guys.
I'm starting to see Otter and Boyd's point about using some kind of wind indicator to confirm that conditions are as calm and steady as you think they are. These are very easy to set up. Spend 10-15 minutes just watching them to see if anything comes and goes. It will give you a visual for future reference. Underestimating what a light breeze will do to the bullet is typical of all rookies. Ask me how I know! It is important what window of conditions you choose to shoot your group through and I think you will see for yourself sooner or later.
Nice rifle. I'm betting you will be getting some groups to brag about very soon.
In the picture, is that a sling swivel stud on the butt stock?
Re the scope, too bad we are not close enough so that I could let you try one of mine.

 

[bam1015]

OK being im a rookie i will get flags for next time i go out ...BUT...Ill have to say if you look on my original post the middle set of targets..the middle 2 sets are both 3 shot same hole sets...the kicker?that was 3 weeks ago and wind gusts were upwards of 20 mph......pure luck?? i dunno but i am not going to argue the need for flags....what id like is some of you seasoned shooters to give me an idea how far off a shot will go at 100 yrds with say a 10 mph breeze? But again dont get me wrong i WILL shoot with flags.....oh and yes a sling swivel ,I need to make it go away and if the rear bag needs to be off the pistol grip, where should it be? The more i read your helpful posts im thinking my rest set up and shooting style is the larger part of my problem . i have played around with free recoil a bit...not sure ...man i wished some of you guys were nere East Tennessee ..i think i could learn alot from an afternoons shooting with ya...lol

 

[Frankr]

bam you said the front action screw was loose, i have run into that on a semi custom varmint rig that just quit shooting..you are going to have to stand the rifle up loosen the screws and put a little pressure back on the barreled action and tighten the front screw and then the rear, if you just tightened the screws and the recoil lug is not seated up againest the stock, it will shoot all over..I have some friends who shoot off a set up like yours and i did at one time too , its good enough to shoot some nice groups.
as to your question,how far does the wind push the bullet at 100 yrds..depends on the angle of the wind and the tune of the load..i have seen a big wind move the bullet one hole and at the same time what would seem to be the same wind move it 3" at 100 yrds..that was a bad tuned load..that was very wind sensitive..the wind can be very trickey..I have yet to figure it out. can you get any 65gr V-max's..can you get any H322 or RL10 powder..or even H4895..all powders that have worked well..I would say i could take a 65gr V-max and any powder i listed and shoot .350-.450 fairley consistantly..i might even sneek in some mid .200's..Thats how accurate your 6BR sould be..i hope you get it shooting well..

 

[Tozguy]

Bam, your nice groups are not pure luck, you obviously have somethings working well. I agree with FJ and others about the wind. It is possible that the dispersion on your targets is wind related. If it is, no amount of load tweaking will correct it. At the point you are at, it could be an unnoticed change in the wind that prevents you from shooting one ragged hole .....every time. Shooting gives you a whole new perspective on wind. A 5 mph breeze from 9 oclock will move your bullet but when the same 5 mph wind suddenly switches to 3 oclock at 30 yds from the bench for just one bullet, your group is toast. Through all this you will not feel any difference from the breeze on your face or bare arms.
The direction and speed of the wind is not a problem so much as how reliable or constant it is. If your range is sunken and would appear to be protected from the wind all the more reason to check if there are any eddys, downdrafts or updrafts that are ruining your groups.
One thing that helped me as a rookie when the idea of shooting with wind flags meant sensory overload, was to set some flags up outside the house to watch through a window. One flag will show how quickly the direction and intensity can change back and forth. Two or more flags will show how different the wind can be at different places in my own backyard. Basically, the more I got used to 'reading' flags at home, the more comfortable and useful they became at the range.
Don't feel bad if it gets frustrating at first. When you feel the thrill of getting it right and shooting the smallest group ever because of wind skills, there will be no turning back.

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of additional things...
It looks like that Ruger action sits in an old 40X stock. I have quite a bit of range time in with one. 'Shot quite a few quarter inch groups with a Hart barreled .222 on an old 722 action pillar bedded in one. (2 oz. trigger, 36X scope). My experience was that I did better holding the rifle, but that was before I got a rear bag that is better suited to shooting free. To shoot free one needs a particular style of rear bag. What you show in the picture is not that type. Not to worry, I have seen some terrific shooting done with soft rear bags, by so called bag squeezers who held their rifles. Another thing that I thought that I would point out is that side walls on a range generally cause the wind to become more complicated. I would rather shoot on a totally flat range with no topography to cause swirls, switches and eddies. Watching sticks with ribbons will show you what is going on. If there was an easier way to deal with the wind, we would be using it.

 

[fdshuster]

bam: All excellent advice from above, and I'll add a thought concerning the forend. Yours looks rather narrow with rounded bottom edges. Far from ideal for a benchrest rifle being used in a front machine rest. You have to be handicapped with the torqueing/twisting when the rifle recoils. The reason the flat & wide forends are favored.

I tried to post pics of a flat screw-on adapter I made for one of my stocks that eliminated that problem, have attached many pics on this site before, but for some reason ( don't you love these *&/^#//* computers?), they will not attach. If interested I could attach these pics to an e-mail. PM for initial contact. FDS

bam: Just saw your comment about the rear sling stud. That's the first thing I remove from all my stocks, no exeptions. I have a small box filled with them/ have no use for them. I only leave the front stud in place if I intend to use my Harris bi-pod, but I will be very careful to make sure it does not touch the front bag before, during or after firing. Otherwise, it also is removed.

 

[6BRinNZ]

OK being im a rookie i will get flags for next time i go out ...BUT...Ill have to say if you look on my original post the middle set of targets..the middle 2 sets are both 3 shot same hole sets...the kicker?that was 3 weeks ago and wind gusts were upwards of 20 mph......pure luck?? i dunno but i am not going to argue the need for flags....what id like is some of you seasoned shooters to give me an idea how far off a shot will go at 100 yrds with say a 10 mph breeze? But again dont get me wrong i WILL shoot with flags.....oh and yes a sling swivel ,I need to make it go away and if the rear bag needs to be off the pistol grip, where should it be? The more i read your helpful posts im thinking my rest set up and shooting style is the larger part of my problem . i have played around with free recoil a bit...not sure ...man i wished some of you guys were nere East Tennessee ..i think i could learn alot from an afternoons shooting with ya...lol

Bam - here are some numbers. I have used a 70grn matchking doing 3200fps and Berger's ballistic program. The numbers are close enough to give you an idea. I have left the measurements in inches rather than moa so it is easier to compare directly to your target. If you had a 20mph wind you could effectively double the drift numbers.

Basically you can get some very good groups without flags but if you want to have them in 1 hole it is going to be very difficult to achieve without flags.

Also I am not sure if the others have mentioned this, but I found a small amount of vertical was removed when I started using a front stop to butt my rifle up against when I slid it forward after firing (read as - vertical became more consistent in the groups). You could maybe use a piece of tape on your rifle on the forend as an alignment mark since it looks like your rest doesn't have this attachment.

I was always disappointed in my 6BR somewhat until I went to a true match bullet (75 v-max -> Berger 95 vld) then all of a sudden all the things I had been trying so hard to do suddenly worked (pretty much what everyone has posted).

Good luck - you are well on your way.


+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.243 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 70 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
|
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.243 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: 1.5 inches |
| Weight: 70 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G7 BC: 0.132 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G7 Form Factor: 1.283 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 3200 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 3200 1592 -1.50 0.0000 0.00
100 2831 1245 -0.00 0.0997 -1.05

Same speed from 2 O'clock

+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 3200 1592 -1.50 0.0000 0.00
100 2830 1244 0.00 0.0997 -0.91

and finally 1 O'clock

+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 3200 1592 -1.50 0.0000 0.00
100 2829 1244 -0.00 0.0997 -0.52

 

[bam1015]

Was out of town last week so no shooting for me but UPS just delivered a pkg from sinclair with 2 boxes of bullets....some Berger 68 gn FB and since i was getting Bergers i got a box of 52 gn FB for my 22-250...they are calling for pretty nice weather here this weekend so i will load up some bullets....AND put together some flags and be ready to try them out Sunday....by the way a couple of you mentioned i need a better rear bag....some specific types please........Oh ya some one musta blown themselves up..lol...i also ordered some VV n135 but UPS destroyed that pkg in Nashville....lol

 

[ba_50]

The R77 action isn't a favorite BR action because of the angled bolt, or so I've read. Recently, I ran across something Jon Sundra said, about how he favored flat based actions like the 77. (I do too). So it makes me wonder where the 77 action really stands, flat vs round, how much metal is gone from cutouts, and all the other factors. I had a 77v in 243 that would hold it's own with most varmint rifles. I don't mean to change the subject.

 

[bam1015]

Im loading up some of the bergers today ,unfortunately ill have to use Varget as that my replacement pkg. of n135 didnt make it for the one UPS destroyed last week. im building a set of wind flags to go also ,i will probably place 3 flags equally along the 100 yd distance. I have been reading the recent post Steve Wilson posted about his 6br loads and took note of how much is spoken of the shooting rest and bags ...it has pretty much made me realize i really lack in this department so i am removing sling swivels and going to pay good attention to gun placement in the rests tomorrow.

 

[bam1015]

Well i got my shooting in yesterday....a bit dissapointed, maybe im asking to much from my rig , it started out all over the place . they had called for it to be windy with gusts up to 20 but as usually happens it was quite calm when i started and i had set flags at 10 yds,50 yds and at the target at 100 yds.....like i said when it was calm gun was all over the place, one thing i found was for whatever reason this gun wont shoot free recoil.....maybe its the rig or the way i do it but it didnt start to come in until i went back to applying light pressure on the fore stock. As the afternoon went on the wind did pick up a good bit ...i watched the flags to see wind movement but admittedly mainly looked for lulls to shoot in ,but some of you were right about one thing ,wind does wierd things i could watch the flag blow one way at 50 and be exactly opposite at 100 yds at the same time . Anyway,with all that said my last 3 groups of the day were my best wind and all with a .369 ,a .398 and a .469 groups....and this was working up from 30.5 gns of varget up to 32.5 i know some of you showed concerns at the larger loads but this gun just doesnt shoot until im pushing 33 gns of varget...(i had a smith look at my casing i had 33 gns in and he saw no signs of pressure).........

 

[Tozguy]

Bam, thanks for the feedback. It is not surprising that free recoil was not so hot with your setup. Free recoil only worked for me when using a 3'' flat forend in a 3'' front bag with side tension adjustment, a well fitted rear bag....and a very light trigger.
Good to see that you are working with the wind. It takes a bit of practice. I hope your initial disappointment was abated by the consistency of your last groups. Sounds like progress to me.

 

[Rtheurer]

No help in East TN????? There are some truely great shooters in East TN and west NC. How far are you from Oak Ridge?

There are mentors there you just have not run accross them yet. with that being said your getting great advice from Mr Allen and the rest. I cant shoot off a damn bench for the life of me, its not like you plop down your gear and shoot in the ones. Or atleast on a consistant basis that is. Ive done it but know that the very next day I may not be able to reproduce it. Its all me.

Check out the Oak Ridge range. maybe go to match and meet folks. Shooters are the nicest darn folks there are... period.

RussT
PS a McMillan barrel? lucky stiff, not to many of those floating around anymore. A true peice of history right there.

 

[bam1015]

well if you guys are following my other thread about my cases growing ALOT youll know i have the gun into a smith now trying to find out why brass grows .020 when i shoot it .....on the barrel ,i sure wish i could substantiate that it is a mcmillan but all it has anywhere is 6mmbr on the side of the barrel.
on Oak ridge ,,was there once last fall and watched TTfreestyles daughter smoke a bunch of old men on the 600...lol she can shoot.

 

[GSPV]

I've had better luck with powders other than Varget shooting the mid-60s grain bullets. I've really liked the Hodgdon 8208 XBR (but some folks might string me up for saying that) and H322.

FWIW, Greg J.