Any experience with Hornady projectiles for f-class? Pros/cons? I have noticed the bullet OAL is more consistent than Bergers (because of the tip) with the ELD-X line. The bullet BTO is slightly less consistent with the Hornady though.
Hornady for F-Class
- Thread starter saxeTshooter
- Start date
FeMan
Gold $$ Contributor
I tried them at club level matches as an experiment. They shot well enough but quickly started blowing up as weather warmed and the barrel got some wear on it. That was ELDMs. The ELDXs are thicker but I went back to Bergers and never looked back. They didn't outshoot Bergers for me either.
G7BC
Gold $$ Contributor
Small world. My profile picture was taken at Parma Rod and Gun Club, after winning one of their Long Range Varmint Silhouette matches up there. The rifle in the pic was borrowed to shoot the match and has a Bartlien barrel that was chambered by Spartan. I agree, stick with Bergers for F-Class...
STOMP442
Gold $$ Contributor
Check the weight variation of any bullet made by Hornady in any box and you will quickly realize why 9 out of 10 serious competitors don't use Hornady. They make a great bullet for the everyman hunter/shooter but they just don't cut it when it comes to serious competition. The worst I have ever seen was a box of .30cal 165 SST back in the early 00's. Out of a box of 100 I had a weight variation of nearly 7 grains. Things seem to be better now days but I have still seen weights vary by up to a grain in their ELD-M line of products. To be fair I have not yet tried their new line of A-tip bullets.
If you aren't shooting Berger bullets for LR, you're getting beat by Berger bullets.
Everyone is always trying something to get a competitive advantage. And there's nothing wrong with that, but so far Berger bullets have been consistently the best across the board.
Everyone is always trying something to get a competitive advantage. And there's nothing wrong with that, but so far Berger bullets have been consistently the best across the board.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^^ I've been down that rabbit hole with several different manufacturers and customs. In LR F-class (and MR, for that matter) Berger bullets have won almost all major matches and national championships in the last 7 years that I have been involved. This Kool-aid is for real....drink it!
SSchnd
Silver $$ Contributor
FNG here for F TR.
We will be using the 88eldm for F TR - reason factory Savage FTR rig we wanted to play with at 1000 and wanted a bit more than the 80.5. With the stock rifle chamber being so short the 80.5 was shooting lights out for load testing but had to push it back in the case more than my Wylde chamber in Service Rifle.
We did unithroat the barrel and got a touch aggressive (oops) and went a little longer than desired, The bearing surface on the 88 seems to work for this longer throat as the 90 does not leave much projectile in the case. Load testing we have the 88 grouping like the B80.5. But I too had have Hornady 75's shuck jackets in service rifle. Hoping the velocity and RPM in this 7twist and good barrel maintenance works to our advantage.
Only MR match I fired was with the 80.5. 3x600 match in October. The small x ring is definitely challenging. first two strings were not bad, lost more on the 3rd string to wind. F Class is fun. Wind calls and holding over matters a ton I see.
We will be using the 88eldm for F TR - reason factory Savage FTR rig we wanted to play with at 1000 and wanted a bit more than the 80.5. With the stock rifle chamber being so short the 80.5 was shooting lights out for load testing but had to push it back in the case more than my Wylde chamber in Service Rifle.
We did unithroat the barrel and got a touch aggressive (oops) and went a little longer than desired, The bearing surface on the 88 seems to work for this longer throat as the 90 does not leave much projectile in the case. Load testing we have the 88 grouping like the B80.5. But I too had have Hornady 75's shuck jackets in service rifle. Hoping the velocity and RPM in this 7twist and good barrel maintenance works to our advantage.
Only MR match I fired was with the 80.5. 3x600 match in October. The small x ring is definitely challenging. first two strings were not bad, lost more on the 3rd string to wind. F Class is fun. Wind calls and holding over matters a ton I see.
In 2018 or 2017, Bob Mead won Nationals with a Saum and Sierras. I’m deep in the Hornady or not, quagmire. It is correct that Berger bullets win nearly every big match, but it is also true that 98% of shooters use them, including excellent ones, so by that metric if they were merely average, they should indeed win nearly every match, which they do. But they are exceptional, not average.
Norm, above can shoot clean, (with world record X count) with Berger. He cleaned 90 shots at 1,000 Sunday, the first to do it at Bayou, and he holds the record at long range which is in no danger of ever being topped, at 200-22.
There’s a wrinkle and rub here, for shooters not named Norm, and the rub is this, Norm and several others can probably beat nearly everyone, using A-tips, when the rest all shoot Bergers, or even Bergers in Norm’s gun, and who knows maybe something like this has happened, (safe bet)- a number of top shooters have tried them but only a handful discuss results.
The wrinkle is this - a bullet that is a point or a few X’s beneath a Berger at 1,000 in mild conditions, may actually save a master level shooter or weak HM 1-2 points in average or worse conditions. Why, because that shooter is going to miss at least a few wind calls every day, that’s why they aren’t at the top, and it’s conceivable that a bullet like an A-Tip shot fast, will more than make up the difference, in other words lose a point or two to accuracy but save three or four, in forgiving bad wind calls, by snagging 10’s. (They will not help the person that misses no wind calls with a lower BC bullet, and for him, they will lag behind in score by the difference of the group size in dead calm, extrapolated, and this is why it truly does depend who you ask.) Two shooters can be correct with different answers, on what produces their best scores. It’s happened to me with 190’s/Saum on a windy day.
And BC on target can’t be denied anymore as an overall advantage. With the .284 as the frame of reference, diehards could have gone bigger, smaller or stayed put, but most have gone bigger in 2-3 years, none have gone smaller, and only a few stayed exactly the same. And they say they aren’t going back.
The blowup issue is real. That is something I may have only recently resolved, if I have, with a film of HBN. While it may have resolved blowups, the traditional peened in application may be required to preserve accuracy. Don’t know yet.
Aside from outright blowups, which you simply must take steps to avoid IMO, A-Tips can shoot. Monday, I shot this group at 200 with a 300 WM / 250. The square’s an inch, so center to center is probably .33 moa. This has a threatening enough potential to shoot well at 1,000, crossing the target about 1,900 average over the whole day.
Same bullet at 600 can look like this, the good and the 9, with a big win mag. I emphasize win mag because it’s not really intended to shoot tiny up close. It’s a lot of powder and an evened out long range wind bucking group, was more the idea behind it.
This is the same thought process as to why a 6 dasher usually beats a .284 at 300-600.
I’ll say that buying Berger 195’s and 180’s is a huge problem. 245’s I have never seen in stock. This is not a new problem. If you choose Berger, and have no bullets to develop or practice with, only enough for matches, that might be a no -go, I don’t like that feeling.
I have no affiliation with a brand. I freely buy at retail any and all of them.
I have cleaned 1,000 with Berger180’s in mild conditions, but with no other bullet.
I have shot my highest X count at 1,000 with Berger 195’s, mild conditions, .284.
I have shot my highest relative scores in windy conditions with a saum and A-Tips.
I have saved the most potential 9’s in windy conditions in Phoenix with 250 A-Tips in a win mag, at 199-6 I believe. I have also blown them up.
If I were assured of a calm day at 600, I’d pick Lapua Scenars and Lapua .284 brass.
I don’t actually see, yet, that A -Tips lack any observable physical characteristic that would keep them below the highest potential score a shooter is capable of.
Guys that say they do not agg as well, are all very reliable, experienced shooters and seem to be in agreement, but they are, to a man, hard pressed to explain why this is. If there is a uniformity flaw, it’s either dang well hidden, or folks don’t talk.
Norm, above can shoot clean, (with world record X count) with Berger. He cleaned 90 shots at 1,000 Sunday, the first to do it at Bayou, and he holds the record at long range which is in no danger of ever being topped, at 200-22.
There’s a wrinkle and rub here, for shooters not named Norm, and the rub is this, Norm and several others can probably beat nearly everyone, using A-tips, when the rest all shoot Bergers, or even Bergers in Norm’s gun, and who knows maybe something like this has happened, (safe bet)- a number of top shooters have tried them but only a handful discuss results.
The wrinkle is this - a bullet that is a point or a few X’s beneath a Berger at 1,000 in mild conditions, may actually save a master level shooter or weak HM 1-2 points in average or worse conditions. Why, because that shooter is going to miss at least a few wind calls every day, that’s why they aren’t at the top, and it’s conceivable that a bullet like an A-Tip shot fast, will more than make up the difference, in other words lose a point or two to accuracy but save three or four, in forgiving bad wind calls, by snagging 10’s. (They will not help the person that misses no wind calls with a lower BC bullet, and for him, they will lag behind in score by the difference of the group size in dead calm, extrapolated, and this is why it truly does depend who you ask.) Two shooters can be correct with different answers, on what produces their best scores. It’s happened to me with 190’s/Saum on a windy day.
And BC on target can’t be denied anymore as an overall advantage. With the .284 as the frame of reference, diehards could have gone bigger, smaller or stayed put, but most have gone bigger in 2-3 years, none have gone smaller, and only a few stayed exactly the same. And they say they aren’t going back.
The blowup issue is real. That is something I may have only recently resolved, if I have, with a film of HBN. While it may have resolved blowups, the traditional peened in application may be required to preserve accuracy. Don’t know yet.
Aside from outright blowups, which you simply must take steps to avoid IMO, A-Tips can shoot. Monday, I shot this group at 200 with a 300 WM / 250. The square’s an inch, so center to center is probably .33 moa. This has a threatening enough potential to shoot well at 1,000, crossing the target about 1,900 average over the whole day.
Same bullet at 600 can look like this, the good and the 9, with a big win mag. I emphasize win mag because it’s not really intended to shoot tiny up close. It’s a lot of powder and an evened out long range wind bucking group, was more the idea behind it.
This is the same thought process as to why a 6 dasher usually beats a .284 at 300-600.
I’ll say that buying Berger 195’s and 180’s is a huge problem. 245’s I have never seen in stock. This is not a new problem. If you choose Berger, and have no bullets to develop or practice with, only enough for matches, that might be a no -go, I don’t like that feeling.
I have no affiliation with a brand. I freely buy at retail any and all of them.
I have cleaned 1,000 with Berger180’s in mild conditions, but with no other bullet.
I have shot my highest X count at 1,000 with Berger 195’s, mild conditions, .284.
I have shot my highest relative scores in windy conditions with a saum and A-Tips.
I have saved the most potential 9’s in windy conditions in Phoenix with 250 A-Tips in a win mag, at 199-6 I believe. I have also blown them up.
If I were assured of a calm day at 600, I’d pick Lapua Scenars and Lapua .284 brass.
I don’t actually see, yet, that A -Tips lack any observable physical characteristic that would keep them below the highest potential score a shooter is capable of.
Guys that say they do not agg as well, are all very reliable, experienced shooters and seem to be in agreement, but they are, to a man, hard pressed to explain why this is. If there is a uniformity flaw, it’s either dang well hidden, or folks don’t talk.
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Center of gravity offset from the geometric center caused by the jacket not being of even thickness. The quality is sub standard, they have a higher level of dispersion because of this. You can test this yourself with a static balance.
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I should “slowly” deconstruct a few of these and examine the jackets. They are the culprit in that other problem, after all. It had not occurred to me that jackets would be very susceptible to uneven thickness.
I think price holds them back, too. As with the old Berger VLD profile, I believe A-Tips are seating depth sensitive, despite Hornady saying they are not. More specifically, the jump needs to be generous, and so long as it is, they may not be sensitive. But a big grouping load at near dollar a bullet may not get a lot of development effort.
Also, a bullet that is expensive AND needs to be seated past the junction, bothers a lot of shooters. But it’s right there in the large pictures of bullet cutaways on their podcast. The loaded rifle rounds are seated with body well below the junction, and while that may be for magazines, it also is what A-Tips need to look like.
Well, not if you invest in a reamer specifically for A-tips... My & Sherman Short reamer for the 7mm's produced a .325" throat.
I could keep the base high in the shoulder area with the long neck of the SS case. Oddly, only one of five barrels shot well enough to be competitive...but that one barrel shot them very well. Just think of how that barrel would have shot with a 180 hybrid.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
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Texas Solo
B.S. High Master
I use the 75gr ELDM in FTR at 300yds & 600yds. It does fine.
But in my 308, I switched to Lapua 185gr Scenars. Couldn't find the Berger 185gr Juggs so I tried the Lapua. They shoot 100% of what the Berger does, and they're $20 cheaper per 100.
But in my 308, I switched to Lapua 185gr Scenars. Couldn't find the Berger 185gr Juggs so I tried the Lapua. They shoot 100% of what the Berger does, and they're $20 cheaper per 100.
B Nettesheim
Gold $$ Contributor
In my observations over the years,
Hornadys account for the majority of missed shots on e targets. Hmmmm
Hornadys account for the majority of missed shots on e targets. Hmmmm
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