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Hope bullet sorting will make setting CBTO easier

Linko

Silver $$ Contributor
I just bought a Bob Green comparitor to sort my bullets. It has been a real pain seating bullets and using a caliper to set seating depth. Seat bullets and then see there there is a difference in depth then back and forth to the die setting to get the rounds all the same. I hope now that I have a bullet comparitor the seated rounds will be much closer and require less back and forth in the die by sorting the bullets in like groups before seating.
 
Linko -
As Mike stated above, consistent neck tension is a very key aspect, in my experience as well.
Neck prep is the most meticulous aspect to my reloading, that I never stop trying to improve upon.
Seating dies can be an issue as well, and a well maintained (clean) die and polished seater-stems help.
The BGC should make some difference for ya !.!.!
Donovan
 
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Thanks Donovan,
It's good to read what I have suspected for some time is true. As I spend more time fine tuning the entire aspect of seating bullets, my groups have shrunk and I am shooting higher scores.
Thanks,

Lloyd
 
Linko -
As Mike stated above, consistent neck tension is a very key aspect, in my experience as well.
Neck prep is the most meticulous aspect to my reloading, that I never stop trying to improve upon.
Seating dies can be an issue as well, and a well maintained (clean) die and polished seater-stems can help.
Betting the BGC will help !.!.!
Donovan

Donavan,

What seating die are you using and how do you polish your seating Stem?

Thanks
 
Foxguy -
For my match rifles I have Redding Comps and Wilson Inline's.
I polish the stems with steel wool wrapped around used bore brushes, spun in a drill. Have used 220-lapping compound on the steel-wool as well when first polishing them.
I also re-polish all my dies (sizer's, seaters, and neck dies) and seater stems often after a few cleanings, as maintenance, in the same manor with xxxx-steel wool wrapped around brushes in a drill.
I clean all the dies, shell-holder, and bushings internals before loading my match ammo every time. I use bore-cleaner on mops and cue-tips to clean, then fallow up with brake-cleaner and compressed air.
Happy Thanksgiving
Donovan
 
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I just bought a Bob Green comparitor to sort my bullets. It has been a real pain seating bullets and using a caliper to set seating depth. Seat bullets and then see there there is a difference in depth then back and forth to the die setting to get the rounds all the same. I hope now that I have a bullet comparitor the seated rounds will be much closer and require less back and forth in the die by sorting the bullets in like groups before seating.

To get consistent cartridge base to bullet ogive results, I think you need to sort bullets based on the distance from the ogive to the seater die cup contact point. Have not seen a good method to do that. Sorting by bullet base to ogive does nothing to improve consistency in cartridge base to bullet ogive dimensions.
 
That's what his BGC does Ron.
It's body stops bullets very near bearing diameter, while an indicator with a Wilson seater stem takes datum near most other seater stems. This gives you a reading to zero on, and compare bullet to bullet datum differences.
Given that this is one of several seating depth contributors, it's still best to verify CBTO for each loaded.
With ogive radius and seating forces managed, consistent seating should be far less of a battle.
 
That's what his BGC does Ron.
It's body stops bullets very near bearing diameter, while an indicator with a Wilson seater stem takes datum near most other seater stems. This gives you a reading to zero on, and compare bullet to bullet datum differences.
Given that this is one of several seating depth contributors, it's still best to verify CBTO for each loaded.
With ogive radius and seating forces managed, consistent seating should be far less of a battle.

Sounds like a good idea then.
 
Thank you. Looks like I am on the right track.

As for seating. I have Whidden Micrometer seater and FL dies in a coax press.

I lube before sizing with lanolin/99% alcohol and then clean my brass with dry media then wipe inside the neck and outside with alcohol.
 
Linko -
As Mike stated above, consistent neck tension is a very key aspect, in my experience as well.
Neck prep is the most meticulous aspect to my reloading, that I never stop trying to improve upon.
Seating dies can be an issue as well, and a well maintained (clean) die and polished seater-stems help.
The BGC should make some difference for ya !.!.!
Donovan

Polished seater stem? I think you are talking about the cup end of the stem that the bullet enters, correct?
 
@Linko -
Correct, the cup end. Both internally and the cup mouth.
Then often fallow up cleaning out of the cup internally (there easily acceptable of build up).
Donovan
 
When you buy high quality bullets sorting is not needed unless you are a top ten shooter.

This is totally incorrect. Shooters at any level can improve the consistency of their loads by sorting at a number of levels. Whether they choose to do so, depending on their time and commitment, will have an impact on their performance, regardless of the level at which they perform. The various Lots of different Berger bullets I use in F-TR competition typically vary by about .012" to .015" in OAL, sometimes a little more. The BC of these bullets can typically be improved by 3-5% by pointing, which will absolutely show up on the target/score, regardless of the level of shooter. Length sorting and pointing offer a noticeable improvement in consistency that is independent of shooter skill. Whatever their performance level, consistency will generally be improved by sorting and pointing bullets. Contrary thinking is wishful at best and simply means the potential gains in consistency that could have been achieved will not be. The choice to sort is still up to the individual.

This is analogous to stating that weighing powder to 0.5 gr precision is all that is necessary unless you are a top-10 shooter, which is also untrue. All sources of error are cumulative, regardless of shooter skill level. Understanding the limiting sources of error is key to maximizing efficiency, productivity, and return on time investment. Spending hours upon hours for extremely small/marginal gains may not be useful for everyone. For example, it is certainly possible for someone's shooting skills to be so poor that the improvement from various sorting techniques might be largely lost in the noise. However, a number of common sorting practices in reloading/shooting that really don't require that all much extra effort will often be of benefit, even to shooters at beginning or intermediate skill levels.
 
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This is totally incorrect. Shooters at any level can improve the consistency of their loads by sorting at a number of levels. Whether they choose to do so, depending on their time and commitment, will have an impact on their performance, regardless of the level at which they perform. The various Lots of different Berger bullets I use in F-TR competition typically vary by about .012" to .015" in OAL, sometimes a little more. The BC of these bullets can typically be improved by 3-5% by pointing, which will absolutely show up on the target/score, regardless of the level of shooter. Length sorting and pointing offer a noticeable improvement in consistency that is independent of shooter skill. Whatever their performance level, consistency will generally be improved by sorting and pointing bullets. Contrary thinking is wishful at best and simply means the potential gains in consistency that could have been achieved will not be. The choice to sort is still up to the individual.

This is analogous to stating that weighing powder to 0.5 gr precision is all that is necessary unless you are a top-10 shooter, which is also untrue. All sources of error are cumulative, regardless of shooter skill level. Understanding the limiting sources of error is key to maximizing efficiency, productivity, and return on time investment. Spending hours upon hours for extremely small/marginal gains may not be useful for everyone. For example, it is certainly possible for someone's shooting skills to be so poor that the improvement from various sorting techniques might be largely lost in the noise. However, a number of common sorting practices in reloading/shooting that really don't require that all much extra effort will often be of benefit, even to shooters at beginning or intermediate skill levels.

I only compete against myself. My goal is to improve on my previous match by some small measure. My thinking is, if i keep beating my previous score, sooner or later I'll start beating everyone else. so far, this mind set has served me well.
Thanks,

Lloyd
 
This is totally incorrect. Shooters at any level can improve the consistency of their loads by sorting at a number of levels. Whether they choose to do so, depending on their time and commitment, will have an impact on their performance, regardless of the level at which they perform. The various Lots of different Berger bullets I use in F-TR competition typically vary by about .012" to .015" in OAL, sometimes a little more. The BC of these bullets can typically be improved by 3-5% by pointing, which will absolutely show up on the target/score, regardless of the level of shooter. Length sorting and pointing offer a noticeable improvement in consistency that is independent of shooter skill. Whatever their performance level, consistency will generally be improved by sorting and pointing bullets. Contrary thinking is wishful at best and simply means the potential gains in consistency that could have been achieved will not be. The choice to sort is still up to the individual.

This is analogous to stating that weighing powder to 0.5 gr precision is all that is necessary unless you are a top-10 shooter, which is also untrue. All sources of error are cumulative, regardless of shooter skill level. Understanding the limiting sources of error is key to maximizing efficiency, productivity, and return on time investment. Spending hours upon hours for extremely small/marginal gains may not be useful for everyone. For example, it is certainly possible for someone's shooting skills to be so poor that the improvement from various sorting techniques might be largely lost in the noise. However, a number of common sorting practices in reloading/shooting that really don't require that all much extra effort will often be of benefit, even to shooters at beginning or intermediate skill levels.

I would really like to hear how you sort/prep bullets for Fclass. My personal feeling is it's really easy to go down the rabbit hole on this, but some sorting and prep can only help.
 
I would really like to hear how you sort/prep bullets for Fclass. My personal feeling is it's really easy to go down the rabbit hole on this, but some sorting and prep can only help.

I do the simplest steps I possibly can, ones that I have verified repeatedly to actually show an improvement on the target. You'll probably laugh at the simplicity of it, but it works.

In the beginning, I purchased all the tools and toys for trimming and pointing bullets, but quickly found trimming meplats to be a PITA. First - because doing it tied me to the reloading bench, second - because I was never happy with the appearance of my pointing process when using trimmed bullets. So I started sorting bullets by OAL and pointing directly. I have used this approach for some time now and have been very satisfied with the results.

I sort bullets by OAL into length groups of ~0.0015" to 0.0020". I will usually get 5-6 groups from a single Lot of bullets. There may be a few "extreme" outliers in the shortest/longest sort groups, which I use for foulers. The majority of the bullets will generally be in the middle two groups or so (~ bell curve distribution). Within a single length group, the pointing die does not need to be reset; simply find the setting that gives a good point for that length group bullet, then adjust the die up/down according to the avg. length of each group as you use other length groups.

The process of length sorting bullets is quite easy and simple and can be done with a set of calipers while watching TV. Pointing requires that you purchase a die, but is not very difficult in and of itself. Together, the two steps can reduce the required elevation and tighten groups at distances of as little as 300 yd. I set the pointing die point so that the meplat is closed off by about 50-70% from its original diameter. I do not try to shut it completely, which will cause a bulge behind the point. Because I do not trim the meplats prior to pointing, they can sometimes be a little uneven, the appearance of which is often increased by pointing. I don't worry about the unevenness because as you close the tip and move the mass in closer to the bullet axis of rotation, the effect of possible uneven distribution is negated. Having done many side-by-side tests with [length-sorted + pointed bullet] loads vs [unprocessed bullet] loads, the improvement in consistency is very noticeable.

So I described my bullet sorting/pointing process in a hideous level of detail above as requested. However, the exact same logic can be applied to other areas in the reloading process to enhance/improve consistency. I won't go into any more excruciating detail here, but try to think about the most simple and direct approaches that might be used to improve consistency in throwing charges, prepping brass, and seating bullets. People regularly post their specific sorting approaches and techniques here on the forum every day that apply to each of these categories. The idea is to learn what you can about these different approaches so that you can make an informed decision about whether the time/effort/cost will be have any possible benefits in terms of accuracy/precision in your reloading process.

If you're not currently doing anything at all, there are a number of simple steps you can take to improve consistency, such as sorting/pointing bullets as I described above. These steps can help shooters at most any level, not just those in the very top tier. Think about it this way; when you get behind the rifle in a match (or in practice) and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your load is consistently capable of shooting under half a minute (or better), then you also know with certainty that what you see happen on the target is due solely to the wind and/or you. In terms of improving marksmanship skills and windreading, that confidence is invaluable at any level and is worth some effort to achieve.
 

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