Help with .308 win vs 308 Palma

[Wjesswheel]

Originally was going to buy a savage model 12 Palma, like the adjustable stock, went to local gun shop and they said that it was completely different round the the 308 win. So I changed to purchase a savage f/tr in standard 308 win. Guess my question is if I purchase the savage in 308 Palma which I believe has some sort of tighter neck clearances can you still shoot say military 308 in case of a say zombie apocalypse (lol) or am I just stuck shooting the Palma cartridges thru it. Is it safe, lessaccurate t shoot standard 308 thru it. Seems like you might have some extraction problems. This is going to be a one time purchase for scope and gun trying to build a dream gun or my dream gun. I have about 4000 to 4300 to spend and most likely iam only going to get one chance to get it right. Most of my guns are under 750 so detailed answers wouldncreally be appreciated

 

[nastynatesfish]

I think the difference is the stock? I find it hard to believe anything else to be different. I have the ftr. The Palma has the adjustable stock mine just had the cheek piece.

 

[Wjesswheel]

So ho does it shoot and what scope ya have

 

[stool]

palma has strick chamber/ammo defiinitions.

it will should have a 7.62x51 chamber ..of some sort..not an off the shelf 308 win chamber.

if no one pops up, go ask on the long range forum.

 

[Taildrag15X]

The Savage Palma #18532 is chambered in .308 Win with a 95 PALMA reamer, which means it's set up to shoot 155gr. family of bullets due to the bullet weight limit in PALMA.


And the F/TR #18154 is factory chambered in .308 Win. but I don't know the reamer used.......

Some info here from fellow Forum Member and Team Savage member Monte......


memilanuk

08-25-2010, 07:16 PM

I haven't fooled much with 175 bullets of any flavor in a Palma chamber in any gun. I may have to remedy that, as the question seems to come up regularly. There are a number of special .308 'match' reamers floating around out there, more than a few of which are basically either an Obermeyer (what the 12 F/TR uses) or a 95 Palma reamer, throated slightly longer to accept a S175MK seated to make more use of the available magazine length (generally 2.810-2.820"). As such... trying to stuff a S175MK in a *regular* 95 Palma chamber may not be the best route, and I'd seriously have to wonder if a Berger 175gn VLD would be much better off. However... Berger does make a 175gn LR BT bullet - basically a 'big brother' to the 155.5 gn LR BT 'Fullbore' bullet. I've fondled/measured some of the B185LRBT and B210LRBT bullets, and they have fairly short bearing surface sections compared to older designs from other makers - just like the B155.5BT (and admittedly the newer S155MK Palma bullet aka '2156&#39. Being closely related and all that, I'd bet the B175LRBT probably has a shorter bearing surface than a S175MK... so you might get luck in that it doesn't take up as much case capacity when seated into or near the lands.

From previous experience with S175MK bullet in *other* barrels and chambers, about 2.800-2.810", either 43.8gn RE-15 or 44 gn Varget in a Winchester case seemed to work really well.

As mentioned, both the new B155.5BT 'Fullbore' and the new S155MK 'Palma' bullets are longer (like the Lapua Scenar) and have a much shorter bearing surface than previous models. As such, you can easily seat them out far enough to get enough powder behind them to make rated speed.

The downside is... the 1-13" twist is/was more ideal for the traditional (old) S155MK and its clone, the Nosler 155 Custom Competition bullet, and the old B155BT & VLDs. The much longer Lapua 154gn Scenar and the new Berger/Sierra bullets are probably more ideally suited to a 1-12" twist, and wouldn't be out of place in a 11 twist. Note there is a difference between 'not ideal' and "won't work at all". I've used B155.5BTs over 46.8gn N150, about 45 thou off the lands, in both my 12 F/TR and in my 12 Palma. Accuracy in the 12 F/TR could be described as 'surgical', while the 12 Palma wasn't exactly slacking off - though I was less concerned about it as I use that particular rifle as an iron-sight gun.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[Stumpy1]

The chambers themselves are the relatively the same (308 win). The barrel twist on the 12 Palma is 13, and is (or should be) chambered with a Palma 95 reamer. What this means is that it has a fairly short freebore (0.050" if I recall correctly), and is set up for 155 grain bullets. Depending on a variety of things, it might stabilize 168's maybe even 175's. You would need to make sure you can safely chamber the heavier bullets before you start though. You can always have it throated a little deeper if you need to, or just run 155 grain bullets, and be happy!

Hope this helps,

Frank

 

[OldManTA]

I recommend that you got to www.riflemansjournal.blogspot.com and read the various articles about the 308, Palma and the bullets used. German Salazar has provided well illustrated and written articles on the subjects. I am personally in the process of having a rifle rebarreled for Palma type competition and if there is that much riding on the consequences of your decisions I think you need to have the basics down before you commit funds to one choice. Good luck and good shooting.

Tom Alves

 

[stool]

relatively is an very big word when it comes to chambers and such.
palma is built on a spec min drawing from 7.62x51.....not 308 win...

yes they are close, no they are not the same......
iirc..the palma rifle has to chamber a spec 7.62x51 nato round....so cannot be smaller than.

"The chambers themselves are the relatively the same (308 win). "
Frank

 

[rminut]

I can tell you this about a '95Palma chamber (mine was done by Warner Tool Co), it will not chamber a round of 118LR. You would have to push the bullet in some .025". So other factory rounds using a 175SMK at 2.8" will probably not work.

 

[stool]

absolutely correct!
palma is based on 7.62x51 ball ammo.....( m80 or something like that)
the chamber is spec'd based on some generic numbers that palma has in their rules....
bottom line..their palma gauge hast to fit a true palma rifle.

I can tell you this about a '95Palma chamber (mine was done by Warner Tool Co), it will not chamber a round of 118LR. You would have to push the bullet in some .025". So other factory rounds using a 175SMK at 2.8" will probably not work.

 

[Laurie]

Modern Palma is NOT based on 7.62X51mm NATO and back in the days when the host country for the Palma international team matches provided competitors with both rifles and ammunition, the USA provided specially built Winchester M70 'Ultramatch' .308 Win calibre target rifles as long ago as 1976.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/history-history-of-palma-match.html

... and 25,000 rounds of .308W ammo was loaded for that year's competition by Winchester-Western using 190gn match bullets. This applied to all subsequent US hosted 'Palma' rounds while these arrangements applied.

However, in that era, when hosted by GB or British Commonwealth countries, 7.62mm TR ('Target Rifle') rifles were supplied and standard 7.62mm NATO ball ammo issued to all competitors, because that is what these countries used in their domestic matches.

Target / Fullbore rifle evolved out of various western nations' old 'Service Rifle' disciplines that used the local service rifle and cartridge. That is derivations of the M1896 Mauser in Sweden and the milspec version of 6.5X55mm, the Enfield Number 4 rifle and Pattern '14 in GB and the British Commonwealth with the .303 Mk 7 ball round and so on and so forth. These were slowfire matches shot over every distance from 200 to 1,000 yards with the exception of 700 yards for some reason.

There was either little or even no direct US equivalent as High-Power Service Rifle in the USA was always a different discipline which involved various shooting positions, rapid-fire, and in-stage compulsory reloads. However, I'm sure that M1 Garands and M1903 Springfields were also employed in various multi distance slowfire matches out to 1,000 yards as was the case in Scandinavia and the British Commonwealth, but it wasn't the primary discipline. Even though magazine rifles were employed, the GB / European model specifically banned the use of the magazine other than as a loading platform, and single-loading was compulsory.

When these countries adopted the 7.62mm as their military cartridge during the 1950s, this caused them great difficulty in the formal prone target shooting activity rules. Many of the older military rifles proved unsuitable or only marginally suitable for the higher pressure 7.62mm, but the tradition was to use the current military cartridge and all were keen to carry on with this. (There were financial advantages too back in the 60s/70s as most governments and defence departments provided free or heavily subsidised milspec cartridges to their shooting national governing bodies.) Eventually, the 'Target Rifle' discipline was adopted using heavy barrel single shot rifles, this taking place in the UK over 1967/68, rifles chambered for the standard NATO ball round, which was specified with a 144 to 147gn FMJBT bullet at a nominal 2,800 fps. A great deal of development work had to be done to adapt the No.4 rifle to the 7.62mm, the main changes being the substitution of a barrel that was very much longer (25" increased to 30") and of a VERY much heavier profile. The military rifle woodwork and bedding didn't suit this barrel, so there was a forced move to a chopped off forend and handguard and the barrel was free-floated with some action bedding changes. The 7.62 was found to have relatively poor accuracy and inadequate long-range performance, so various other measures were adopted to ameliorate these issues, primarily very tight bore barrels to get MVs up and a 1-14" rifling twist rate to reduce the spin rate on these bullets with poor concentricity.

While there was no doubt a great deal of discussion within the US shooting bodies over the NATO led changes, there was no equivalent redrawing of the primary discipline as in the UK. The M14 and 7.62X51mm joined the M1903 and M1 in .30-06 as eligible combinations, I imagine the M1 in 7.62mm form too as the US Navy adopted this modification instead of the M14 ... and another generation later, the AR15/M16 in 5.56/.223 joined the procession.

At some point or other, the US based International Palma committee changed the rules for the ammunition to be used in the three yearly international events to make the 155gn HPBT match bullet compulsory, that is the original Sierra Palma MatchKing p/n 2155. Later, the rules for both Palma and Fullbore Rifle (which encompasses 'Target Rifle') changed the rules to insist on use of a bullet that weighs 'less than 156gn'. The various national bodies which regulate their local versions of Palma Rifle / Fullbore Rifle / Target Rifle formed a body called ICFRA (the International Confederation of Fullbore Rifle Associations) to set international regulations and standards on overall weights, minimum trigger pull weight, cartridge specs, target dimensions, how matches are run, courses of fire etc. At a yet later date, .223 was added to .308. For many years, all ICFRA regulations, papers etc routinely referred to the two cartridges under their twin civilian and military designations, even though there are differences in their specifications. ie 5.56mm/.223 Rem and 7.62mm/.308 Win. That went back to the historic and national differences in practices referred to. Some years ago, ICFRA removed EVERY reference to 5.56mm and 7.62mm from all documents and regulations. This was because (1) all modern TR / FB / Palma Rifle chambers and barrels are for .223 and .308, also because 5.56mm and 7.62mm are now legally defined as 'military' and there are restrictions in many parts of the world on their civilian use, also affecting such weapons and ammunition being carried on international transport and crossing international borders. For instance, IATA the international airline operators trade body, has agreed with the UN Inter-Governmental Commission on Reducing the Supply of Smallarms that none of its members will carry any miliatry calibre weapon or ammunition on civil flights.

So, what are the differences between the Savage F/TR and Palma models? Does the Palma have a 7.62mm chamber? I don't know what Savage uses, but when Stumpy1 says the factory uses a reamer made to the Palma 95 specification that sounds correct. I have in front of me, PT&G's 'The Gunsmithing Book of Chamber Prints' and what headspace does it give for the .308 Palma 95? It is drawn as 'minimum 1.630"' for the Palma 95, likewise that of the .308 Palma Bisely 150 Rule which is that used by many British gunsmiths in building TR rifles, likewise that of SAAMI .308 Win, .308 Obermeyer Match ... I could go on.

When these rifles are imported into Europe and the UK, it is a legal requirement that they undergo proof testing before sale. Either model of Savage 12 Competition rifle is 'proofed' as .308 Winchester and stamped as such in the UK's London or Birmingham proof house. 7.62X51mm NATO cal. rifles use a different specification proof cartridge and are stamped up differently on acceptance.

The GO gauge for .308 Win is 1.630" too while that for 7.62 NATO is 1.635", and every other dimension is larger by a significant amount. These rifles are NOT chambered for 7.62X51mm NATO. Moreover, the ammuntion used in every country that has these (Palma / TR) rifles of any make and model says .308 Winchester on the carton. The UK ammunition supplied by the GB NRA is .308 Win RWS ammunition specially made to suit a slightly tight barrel .308 Win rifle with a 30-inch barrel to produce around 2,925 fps from the original Sierra 155 (#2155). it says .308 Win on the box and the case dimensions are specified for that cartridge and chamber as laid down by the US SAAMI organisation.

So, what are the differences between the two .308 WIN Savage Model 12 competition rifles? The chamber up to the case-mouth is likely identical. The throat on the Palma model will be that of the Palma 95 chamber or similar with freebore designed to suit the short 155gn Sierra (#2155) and similar designs. Ahead of there, the rifling pitch is one turn in 13 inches adopted some years back alongside the original 155gn SMK, although many TR / FB / Palma competitors now specify 1-12" on custom rifles as today's 155s have become longer and the 13-inch twist rate has become marginal in the views of some.

The 12 F/TR rifle is different in at least one respect - it has a one in 12 inches twist rate as F/TR does not limit bullet weight in most countries, certainly not in the US or UK (but yes in Canada and some others). To make any sense of the 12" twist, it likely has been given a bit more freebore to handle longer, heavier bullets seated to beyond 2.800" COAL. The 12-inch rate is ideal for the 185gn Berger LRBT 'Juggernaut', but a Palma 95 freebore is overly restrictive forcing handloaders to seat the bullet too deep in the case.

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

What Laurie said

 

[stool]

i agree
what laurie said.
( all my info was based on older stuff...i did not know they had taken 7.62x51 out and left 308 win in)

 

[Wjesswheel]

Laurie, great answer I think a little to tech for me iam a newbie. Think I understand the jest of it. I live in indiana I shoot a 10 yr old bow that I usually out shoot everyone with. I tend to use the k.i.s.s. Principle. I thinks what I got from you was that they are 2 completely different rounds. Iam not rich so 4300 for a scope gun package will definitely be my dream gun. I want to shoot a little cheaper bullets so I can shoot more rounds. I usually shoot a lot oand can tell you exactly what they are doing at every yardag. I am not going to shot competition but I would like to be able to outshoot my buddies,don't like to lose much. So iam thinking what I got from you is to get f/ tr in a standard .308 round and have some fun shoot a little heavier bullet. I also got that cramming a longer heavier bullet in the true Palma chamber probably is not the best for accuracy. Just do not want to spend the money and regret it. Thinking about getting a burris 8 x 40 xtrii with the f class reticle thinking I will be able to dial elevation and hold for wind age any ideas on a scope to go with it? Also thanks to everyone who has answered my post they have all been helpful and I read a post some where on here on mentors so anyone wanting to help me out and keep me from making costly mistakes let me know

 

[simplerider]

I'm an avid savage fan myself and have also been eyeing the palma rifle, but if I had $4000-$4300 to spend on my dream gun like you say you do, I would seriously consider having a custom rifle made to your exact specs by a reputable smith. Keep your options open and shop around

 

[Laurie]

Wjesswheel.

Both Savage models are good rifles and can perform way above their price bracket. (Just look at what Darrel Buell, Stan Pate and Monte Milanuk and others have done with them as Team Savage, the US top level F/TR team and members of the national squad.) The Palma model can be easily adapted to F/TR - I've seen several such in the UK. (We had very few precision Savages reach here a few years back and Osprey Rifles which had specialised in these rifles for F-Class and Benchrest, both factory built and using the Savage PTA action in custom jobs, was left without anything much to build or sell. The only thing that Stuart Anselm of Osprey could get hold of were some Palmas and he turned them into very effective F/TR jobs.

Personally, I'd go for the F/TR model for a first F/TR rifle. It has the 1 in 12-inch rifling twist barrel which I consider preferable even if you stick to 155s. I think it also has a heavier profile barrel than the Palma version. The F/TR model has a different action screw spacing from the other PTA models which might be restrictive if you wish to restock the rifle at a later point.

The upsides are in the value for money and the fact that many of these rifles perform well in F/TR not just in tyros' hands but in those of very experienced and successful shooters. There are downsides - do a search about Savage on these forums and there are many, many topics that run to many tens of posts split between lovers and haters.

The downsides are:

'agricultural' action operation compared to a custom single shot job. Doesn't affect shooting ability, just doesn't feel as slick. (There are companies like Savage Shooters Supply who do re-timing and slicking up mods on them.)

The Accutrigger. There are many on this forum who think they were invented by the Devil when he was in a particularly bad mood. Others find them OK to maybe good. I've always got on fine with them despite using other rifles with Jewell match triggers, but they will never be a Jewell or Kelbly trigger.

The barrel boring process (boring the hole down the middle prior to rifling) is crude and rough compared to that on custom barrels leaving the surface with a lot of relatively deep tool marks. They take a lot of running-in and often don't shoot at their best until they've had two or three hundred rounds through them. Even then, they tend to copper up more than a Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Benchmark, Lilja or whatever. A minority never shoot well no matter what's done with and to them.

These are not criticisms. They just reflect the fact that good design though it is, the Savage is a factory rifle not a custom job. As some say, you can get a basic custom rifle built for little more than the Savage rifles' shop price, but as a newcomer to the discipline, the problem is knowing what specification a custom rifle should be to suit you. A couple of seasons with a factory F/TR or Palma lets you see if you want to continue in F/TR, move to F-Open, or pack up and go do something else, while learning the basic shooting and wind-reading skills, learning about loading really effective precision ammunition and suchlike. If you eventually go down options two and three, you can always sell a Savage precision rifle quickly and at not too much of a loss. Well, we can in the UK, maybe it's different in the US!

 

[Wjesswheel]

Plan was to break it in per savages break in suggestions any thoughts on tubbs break in bullets that have some sort of abrasives in it. Or similar products . Thanks for your replies but mostly for your answer and then the facts of why to go with it. I would have to get in a custom gun for under $1800 or so just did not think I was doable was wanting to get in the gun scope and wind meter and other essentials for $4300.00 any suggestion on a custom gun to look at it. Plan was to shoot 500 rounds thru the summer and send to savagegunsmithing ( not related to Savage arme ) and have it smoothed out and accurized when winter came.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Plan was to break it in per savages break in suggestions any thoughts on tubbs break in bullets that have some sort of abrasives in it. Or similar products . Thanks for your replies but mostly for your answer and then the facts of why to go with it. I would have to get in a custom gun for under $1800 or so just did not think I was doable was wanting to get in the gun scope and wind meter and other essentials for $4300.00 any suggestion on a custom gun to look at it. Plan was to shoot 500 rounds thru the summer and send to savagegunsmithing ( not related to Savage arme ) and have it smoothed out and accurized when winter came.

If I understand your requirements correctly - you don't need a custom action but I would recommend a custom barrel. Ultimately an all custom produces the highest chance of a successful outcome. A bedded factory with a custom barrel can shoot very well and yes you won't see that combination in the world leader list but that doesn't make it bad, it just means its agging in the .3s instead of .1s or 0s...is that ok for your requirements...if you see the point? Again I only mention a custom barrel as the chances are it will shoot and is less of a lottery than a factory barrel.

Team savage can be held up as a show case of what can be achieved - but it doesn't explain what they went through to achieve that level (with respect to tuning and tweaking the rifle)....something to consider on this journey.

Wind meters - if you are shooting under flags they aren't critical, but they are useful to help build an understanding of the wind patterns...IMO can help to build an intuitive understanding over time.

Finally what you like today won't be what you like tomorrow...even with a full custom there is stuff that you won't like.

If it was me I would buy a second hand factory - bed it and put a custom barrel on it...shoot it and learn. Then buy my perfect rifle..which won't be perfect once you have used it for a bit and have found things you don't like

The one thing that I wouldn't compromise on for day 1 is the scope, this can carry across rifles so it is well worth buying and crying once. Yes improvements come out to scopes all the time but - whether you need to get these is purely dependant on your shooting discipline. I can understand BR guys constantly chasing better glass - but For F-class for instance, my number one requirement is robustness ahead of glass - most glass is pretty good these days.

Anyways good luck.