Help! sticky bolt on reloads.

[Justin1098]

I have a Savage 12 benchrest in 6br. I am shooting mostly SMK 107gr bullets with 30.3 gr varget. I use Lapua brass and cci br4 primers. I see no signs fo over pressure on the primers.

I have a redding competition bushing die set. I use a .267 bushing and last time i tried a .266 to no avail. I tried Just neck sizing but after 2 firings the bolt was hard to close. I use the body die now and it bumps the shoulder back to where the new brass is, about one thousandth. I am not really happy with the body die because it has a nasty ridge at the body-shoulder junction that leaves a ring around the brass and i have to get it really tight on the ram to push the shoulder back at all.

With new brass i have no problem. the shells come out very easy but on maybe 20-30% of reloads I have to pull really hard to get the bolt back after i fire it. Also my accuracy is worse on the reloads. like .3 moa with new brass and .5-.75 on reloads. The primer pockets are really tight on new brass and loosen up gradually after each firing. I don't know if this is normal but doesn't seem to be an issue i have 4 firings on one lot of brass and the primer pockets don't seem much looser than new LC 223 brass.

Am on a trip in Washington state working on a boat right now but i plan on ordering a type s full length bushing die when i get back.

So, anybody have an idea what i am doing wrong? Is my load too hot? Do I have a bunk body die?

 

[1holeaddict]

I have 3 Savage 6 br's and i have tried many different reloading techniques and went back where i started. I get the same results from either a Redding or a Forster standard full length die. Bumping the shoulder so there is just a little resistance when closing the bolt. They all shoot in the 2' s -3' s at 200 yards

 

[walker2713]

Ditto what 1hole said.....go with the FL die.

Also, you might think about getting one of the Hornady/Stony Point headspace gauge sets for your calipers....let's you know exactly where you are re the shoulder...love mine. No more guessing....just a thought.

 

[jkohler]

You can shave a Little off the shell holder to help on the shoulder bump. Also the ring you are seeing at the neck shoulder could be coming form your chamber.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I have a Savage 12 benchrest in 6br. I am shooting mostly SMK 107gr bullets with 30.3 gr varget. I use Lapua brass and cci br4 primers. I see no signs fo over pressure on the primers.

Also my accuracy is worse on the reloads. like .3 moa with new brass and .5-.75 on reloads. The primer pockets are really tight on new brass and loosen up gradually after each firing. I don't know if this is normal but doesn't seem to be an issue i have 4 firings on one lot of brass and the primer pockets don't seem much looser than new LC 223 brass.

So, anybody have an idea what i am doing wrong? Is my load too hot? Do I have a bunk body die?

If bolt is hard to open after firing - the rule of thumb is over pressure.

In 6br and lapua brass - I only get primer pockets loosening over time when the load is too hot.

Case volume between LC and Lapua brass are probably quite different so the load may go over pressure if the load was originally developed in one brand of case.

In modern guns primer look is a poor indicator of pressure as it is too easily manipulated.

 

[Justin1098]

Case volume between LC and Lapua brass are probably quite different so the load may go over pressure if the load was originally developed in one brand of case.

So, are you saying i need to develop loads in fireformed brass? Is it really that different? Could 30.3gr of varget with a SMK107 be too hot?

I am inclined to agree with you but I also found this artical by Mr Salazar that indicated improper sizing could cause the same issue at normal pressures.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

BTW
I have the lnl headspace/oal stuff and i can see the ridge inside the body die.

 

[gambleone]

I started doing the same as you. After 2 or 3 firings I had to bump shoulder, but didn't have a problem with a ridge. Send the body die back or get a fl die. I got a fl die for more consistency. If you have a newly bumped cartridge & after firing you have a tight bolt, that's a pressure sign. I can go to 30.1 of varg in my rem 700, then get tight bolt depending on temp.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Case volume between LC and Lapua brass are probably quite different so the load may go over pressure if the load was originally developed in one brand of case.

So, are you saying i need to develop loads in fireformed brass? Is it really that different? Could 30.3gr of varget with a SMK107 be too hot?

I am inclined to agree with you but I also found this artical by Mr Salazar that indicated improper sizing could cause the same issue at normal pressures.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

BTW
I have the lnl headspace/oal stuff and i can see the ridge inside the body die.

No not saying that.

Lets agree a rule of thumb. If you create a load in brand x of brass you need to redo the load if you change the brand of brass.

Lets also agree that without a strain gauge no-one actually knows what the pressure is, we can only go by symptoms of pressure, of which you list two - sticky bolt lift and expanding primer pockets.

Finally it needs to be agreed that factors other than powder can create pressure symptoms. Again without a strain gauge it is unknown if it is over pressure or just exhibiting a symptom. I had pressure symptoms (cratered primers) until I started removing all of the lube from my cases. Clearly in that situation I wasn't over pressure but my reloading practice allowed pressure type symptoms to occur.

In your case IMO the biggest flag that the load is potentially hot (in your rifle) is the expanding primer pockets in lapua brass, this plus the fact that you have two symptoms is a warning flag. We need to agree that the term "load" refers to all aspects not just powder charge - e.g neck tension, jam/jump, primer, case brand etc, and is also affected by externals such as ambient temperature.

You also state that you have poor accuracy. You probably need to state both your process and practices as to how you create and decide on a load - somewhere in there is the answer to both your pressure symptoms and accuracy issues.

 

[Viper8]

I am not really happy with the body die because it has a nasty ridge at the body-shoulder junction that leaves a ring around the brass and i have to get it really tight on the ram to push the shoulder back at all.

Judging by this I'd say your body die does not suit the chamber.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/custom-dies-the-hornady-option-call-lonnie/

 

[markr]

Lets go one further. Two barrels by the same maker, chambers cut by the same smith with the same reamer, can exibit variances in pressure, velocity and accuracy with the identical load. In other words, what was cool in your last barrel may not be too cool in your new barrel.

Case volume between LC and Lapua brass are probably quite different so the load may go over pressure if the load was originally developed in one brand of case.

So, are you saying i need to develop loads in fireformed brass? Is it really that different? Could 30.3gr of varget with a SMK107 be too hot?

I am inclined to agree with you but I also found this artical by Mr Salazar that indicated improper sizing could cause the same issue at normal pressures.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

BTW
I have the lnl headspace/oal stuff and i can see the ridge inside the body die.

No not saying that.

Lets agree a rule of thumb. If you create a load in brand x of brass you need to redo the load if you change the brand of brass.

Lets also agree that without a strain gauge no-one actually knows what the pressure is, we can only go by symptoms of pressure, of which you list two - sticky bolt lift and expanding primer pockets.

Finally it needs to be agreed that factors other than powder can create pressure symptoms. Again without a strain gauge it is unknown if it is over pressure or just exhibiting a symptom. I had pressure symptoms (cratered primers) until I started removing all of the lube from my cases. Clearly in that situation I wasn't over pressure but my reloading practice allowed pressure type symptoms to occur.

In your case IMO the biggest flag that the load is potentially hot (in your rifle) is the expanding primer pockets in lapua brass, this plus the fact that you have two symptoms is a warning flag. We need to agree that the term "load" refers to all aspects not just powder charge - e.g neck tension, jam/jump, primer, case brand etc, and is also affected by externals such as ambient temperature.

You also state that you have poor accuracy. You probably need to state both your process and practices as to how you create and decide on a load - somewhere in there is the answer to both your pressure symptoms and accuracy issues.

 

[Shynloco]

Justin,
For whatever this is worth, you are 2 grs higher using Varget and Sierra 107's than I do in my Savage Model 12 Benchrest 6mm using the same primers as well as Federal Match. You are also 1 gr higher than the max recommended load according to the Sierra manual. And yes I am aware that Sierra tends to print recoomendations to the safer/lower side of loads. Just my thoughts.

 

[Ed333]

Justin,
For whatever this is worth, you are 2 grs higher using Varget and Sierra 107's than I do in my Savage Model 12 Benchrest 6mm using the same primers as well as Federal Match. You are also 1 gr higher than the max recommended load according to the Sierra manual. And yes I am aware that Sierra tends to print recoomendations to the safer/lower side of loads. Just my thoughts.

Just curious, as an F class newbie, waiting for delivery of my Savage Model 12 F Open in 6BR, I have been getting ready by loading new Lapua brass (after deburring flash hole and chamfering/deburring neck) with 30.0 grs. of Varget , CCI 400 primers, with Hornady 105 gr. A-Max...should I dial this down a bit? I took this to be a good starting load, based on something I had read. After finishing this box of Hornady bullets, I was going to shift to Hornady 105 gr. A-Max Moly. Any suggestions?
PS- I just realized that while I had intended to use CCI 450 primers, the first 50 rounds I used the 400 primers. As a new reloader (intending to load mulitlple calibres), i had better get my stuff organized better.
Ed

 

[1holeaddict]

I have run my Savage 6 Br's as high as 30.8 and had no problems in any of the 3 guns. I have settled on 30.2- 30.6 with 105-107 grain bullets. Not saying this goes for all Savages so be careful and start low. Work up slow and careful.

 

[Flouncer]

...should I dial this down a bit?

Yes.

 

[Justin1098]

I was concerned when I was researching before starting to load and Sierra was way below what any load on this site has. I started out at 27 and worked up to 30.5 and the groups tightened up above 30. I also tried H4895 and 29 was the best.

I use the OCW method but I get impatient sometimes because my results arent 100% conclusive. I guess thats just the nature of the beast with a factory rifle.

If I am going to develop loads all over again, I think I will just get a new barrel too. I don't like the burrs that are on the crown (came from the factory like that) and I always wanted a custom barrel anyway. My wife won't like though.

I do intend to FL size too. I think there may be more to my problem than just pressure. The shell was so hard to extract that I almost thought I would have to take it home.

 

[1holeaddict]

Great idea. Run a full length die and be sure u clean all the lube off. Also double check your scale to be sure you are dropping the correct charge. Then i would make sure there is no oil left in the chamber.

 

[beak916]

I am havving the same issue with my savage 6br. After about 4 firings with just a neck bushing bump and a neck size my bolt handle opens easily but does not extract very easy. I am running 105 hybrids with 29.2 grains of 4895. It seems to be a very light load as I have run it over 30 grains and up to 30.8 before I saw signs of pressure. do I need to full legnth size?

 

[Justin1098]

So I'm not the only one.

 

[Jayhawker]

No, you're not the only one. I have a 6 BR Model 12 Savage and was routinely shooting 30 grains of Varget with Berger 105 BT. I had read in so many places that 30 grains of Varget or more was the "gold standard" for accuracy for 6 BR that I really ignored my load work-ups. At 30 grains, I was having hard bolt lift and ejector marks on the brass. At the advice of several folks on this forum, I lowered the charge to 29.5 grains. I can't see where there's any degradation of accuracy and the bolt lift is certainly much better. The same thing occurred with Sierra 107s. I was having hard bolt lift at 29.5 grains and dropped to 29.2 grains of Varget and eliminated the hard bolt lift. Whether this has anything to do with how I size my brass, I don't know, I have not changed my practice of shoulder bumping and neck sizing with a Forster die.

 

[beak916]

Once again my bolt handle lifts fine but I have a hard time getting brass to extract.