Help selecting neck bushing

[clunker]

Now that I feel comfortable reloading for my hunting rifle, I want to get started loading for my .223. My Creedmoor die is not the bushing type, so bushing selection is new to me. If I understand correctly, I just need to measure the neck diameter of several loaded rounds (with the brass I intend to use), and subtract 0.001 from the smallest diameter recorded. Is it really that simple?

Also, I've been very happy with the Whidden dies I've been using with my Creedmoor, so I was planning to buy the same brand for my .223, but with a bushing this time. Any thoughts?

 

[South Pender]

I think that the usual recommendation is to subtract .002" to .003" from the neck diameter of a loaded round. That's the way it is with Wilson dies anyway. Subtracting only .001" would, I think, lead to insufficient neck tension with loaded rounds.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I think that the usual recommendation is to subtract .002" to .003" from the neck diameter of a loaded round.

That works as long as the neck wall thickness for the loaded round is the same as the neck wall thicknesses of the brass to be sized.

 

[clunker]

I think that the usual recommendation is to subtract .002" to .003" from the neck diameter of a loaded round. That's the way it is with Wilson dies anyway. Subtracting only .001" would, I think, lead to insufficient neck tension with loaded rounds.

Bushings aren't that expensive. Do you think it would be worth getting two or three different sizes to see which works your brass the least but still provides enough neck tension? I got the .001" info from the Redding website, but maybe I misunderstood their instructions.

That works as long as the neck wall thickness for the loaded round is the same as the neck wall thicknesses of the brass to be sized.

It might not be the most scientific method, but I checked the neck wall thickness of once-fired factory Lapua rounds. Then I checked the neck wall thickness of my new Lapua brass, and they are identical. Not sure if that is sufficient.

 

[Rset]

Bushings aren't that expensive. Do you think it would be worth getting two or three different sizes to see which works your brass the least but still provides enough neck tension? I got the .001" info from the Redding website, but maybe I misunderstood their instructions.



It might not be the most scientific method, but I checked the neck wall thickness of once-fired factory Lapua rounds. Then I checked the neck wall thickness of my new Lapua brass, and they are identical. Not sure if that is sufficient.

Yes and Yes. If that 223 is in an AR, look more toward .003

 

[clunker]

Yes and Yes. If that 223 is in an AR, look more toward .003

It's a bolt-action Tikka, but I also plan to toy with reloading for my friend's AR. I'll probably buy a cheaper die set and dedicate it to the AR if I decide it's worth my time.

 

[Uncle Ed]

If you do not neck turn the Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use an even smaller bushing and then use the dies expander.

Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. And if you have an off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber you are better off using standard non-bushing dies.

On top of this you will need more than one bushing if you do not anneal the necks because of brass spring back after sizing and brass hardness.

If you neck turn your brass in a factory chamber the neck expands that much more when fired. There are things competitive shooters do with their custom rifles that have no effect on a factory rifle.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection

"The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

 

[chromatica]

It's

I think that the usual recommendation is to subtract .002" to .003" from the neck diameter of a loaded round. That's the way it is with Wilson dies anyway. Subtracting only .001" would, I think, lead to insufficient neck tension with loaded rounds.

I agree with South Pender. In addition to experimenting with bushing diameter, you can fine tune your process by including a neck sizing step using a Lee Collet die. If done properly, the mandrel in the collet die will expand the neck ever so slightly giving more consistent neck tension than a bushing die can provide. (The inside diameter is more critical than the outside diameter.) Even if you include this step in your process, you will still probably end up purchasing several bushings in order to "get things right".

 

[chromatica]

That works as long as the neck wall thickness for the loaded round is the same as the neck wall thicknesses of the brass to be sized.

If the diameter of the neck expands when stretched during bullet seating, then the thickness of the neck will decrease, but this effect is small. If you stretch a .222 neck by .002 when seating a bullet, then the neck wall thickness should contract by .002/.223 or less than 1% - not worth worrying about!

 

[PatMiles]

I also plan to toy with reloading for my friend's AR.

If you decide to load for your friend's AR, buy a small base sizing die. They size the base smaller which helps the autoloader feed the round into the chamber.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If the diameter of the neck expands when stretched during bullet seating, then the thickness of the neck will decrease, but this effect is small. If you stretch a .222 neck by .002 when seating a bullet, then the neck wall thickness should contract by .002/.223 or less than 1% - not worth worrying about!

Different brands of brass can vary substantially in terms of neck wall thickness, which can make a big difference in terms of the appropriate bushing required for a specific neck tension (interference fit). The point being made by Straightshooter1 above had nothing to do with "stretching" of the brass during bullet seating, but how thick the neck walls were to begin with. For example, if you were to measure a loaded factory round that used brass with a relatively thin neck wall, then your estimate of the correct bushing size might be off by as much as a couple thousandths as compared to a measurement determined from a hand-loaded round loaded in brass that had relatively thick neck walls.

The key is to measure the same brass you're actually loading before/after bullet seating and determine which bushing gives the desired neck tension. Not difficult, but the comparison and measurements need to be made using the same brass prep, or at the very least, the same brand of brass. You might get away on occasion with measuring two different preps (or brands) that had similar neck thickness, but why risk any potential negative effect on precision? Only a few pieces from a single brass prep are necessary to take the measurements and they are not damaged or ruined by the process (i.e. they will be fine after being re-sized with the correct bushing prior to the next loading).

 

[cw308]

For a semi auto I use the standard RCBS F/L sizing die would give .003 neck tension with out a crimp. Bolt actions I've tried playing with neck tension using Redding S Type bushing dies , run-out was poor with out neck turning. I also found full sizing with no more then .002 of case headspace using the RCBS regular F/L sizing die worked best. Different neck thickness in the brand of brass used , Remington brass is .001 thinner then Federal so if your going to use bushing dies you'll probably wind up with 5 different sizes . For it to work well I feel you have to neck turn your brass.

 

[clunker]

Thanks for the input everyone. For those who have Whidden dies, Whidden suggests that their dies use Redding and Wison compatible bushings. Any recommendations on which brand or material of bushings to get?

 

[mike a]

What about hardness? Annealing? Non uniform thickness? Expanding? Spring back? Letting it rest. My head hurts. Sorry OP. Your doomed.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Thanks for the input everyone. For those who have Whidden dies, Whidden suggests that their dies use Redding and Wison compatible bushings. Any recommendations on which brand or material of bushings to get?

I'd probably just get the Whidden bushings, and I can't tell a difference between the coated vs. uncoated ones.

One thing to call out is that you need to measure how the bushings are sizing your brass. Just because it's marked a certain size doesn't mean it's actually sizing the neck to that dimension. This is true for pretty much all commercial bushing mfgs.

I would guess that ~50% of the bushings I have (from Redding, Whidden, and Hornady) size different than how they're marked.

 

[Bc'z]

Thanks for the input everyone. For those who have Whidden dies, Whidden suggests that their dies use Redding and Wison compatible bushings. Any recommendations on which brand or material of bushings to get?

Bruno's has best price on Wilson bushings
$12 each last time I bought some.
Here's a shot of a neck tension test I shot out of my 6five, annealed brass, 123 scenars.
No mandrel in die or use of expander mandrel.
You can see preasure ring 2/3 the way down the neck on loaded round.
Normally I run a .288 bushing, .286 is where its happy

 

[clunker]

What about hardness? Annealing? Non uniform thickness? Expanding? Spring back? Letting it rest. My head hurts. Sorry OP. Your doomed.

Yep! Well aware I was doomed when I started reloading. Thankfully, I don't have OCD. As long as I get reasonable repeatable results, I'm happy. My checking account on the other hand is very disappointed in me.

 

[dgeesaman]

Thanks for the input everyone. For those who have Whidden dies, Whidden suggests that their dies use Redding and Wison compatible bushings. Any recommendations on which brand or material of bushings to get?

I have RCBS and Redding bushings in the hardened materials. They are both very good and slick. I also have a couple of benchrite carbide bushings and they are virtual perfection but costly and inappropriate for a generic .223 reload, at least until you settle on a preferred size.

I had a set of Whidden bushings and I did not find them to be as good. The edge of the bushing shaved brass sometimes and they were not always the size they were marked to be. Obviously I could have re labeled them and polished the leading edge but I did not get around to that.

I have not tried Wilson bushings.

To your original question about Whidden dies, I have a few and they are excellent. You will want to pay attention to the amount of resizing taking place regardless of the die brand. Sometimes a particular chamber is far enough from industry norms to justify a custom sizing die. Whidden can handle that too, although it’s a longer lead time.

 

[J F Johannes]

Why not buy the die with his bushing kit and save a little money?

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/bushing-fl-sizer-bushing-kit-2/

Jim

 

[Jennb]

Keep it simple! Measure the neck of a loaded round and buy several bushings from .002 smaller to .005 or so. Brass will spring back a small amount after sizing so a little smaller bushing may be needed to get the desired neck tension.