HELP NEEDED SETTING UP SCOPES

[ANDY T]

Hi
Can anyone tell me where I could find some shooting targets that would help teach how to set up windage and elevation for different distances and different wind speeds on a scope.

I am looking to set up a practical training session for my club for new and old shooters who will be going onto military ranges and shooting at longer distances that what our club can provide. I have been asked to provide some practical training as well as the theory training by some of our members.

I was hoping for some targets that have different distances marked on the target at say 100m,300m,500m,600m etc etc and the same with the wind lines marked on the target 5,10.15.20.30mph etc etc

Then we could ask a shooter to set the scope up for say 400m with a 25mph from 3 clock to see that shooter understands how to use a scope and can dial onto a target at a giving distance and wind speed.

Regards
Andy

 

[glo]

Have never heard or seen such a target. The closest thing to your request is a reduced yardage targets, Silhouette targets and some mil spec targets like the 300m "C" and 500m "D", I shot on in the Corps.

Personally, I think you would screw up your shooters tiring to shoot Windage and Elevations on a single static target. Better to set up multiple aim point targets at multiple distances with a few to the left and right of those aim point targets to simulate target speed or wind speed. Still difficult if the shooters are shooting different weapons. But good luck.

 

[Preacher]

Me neither..
If you come up empty, try to draw exactly what you want and head to a copy place...
I have never seen any like you describe..

 

[6BRinNZ]

I was hoping for some targets that have different distances marked on the target at say 100m,300m,500m,600m etc etc and the same with the wind lines marked on the target 5,10.15.20.30mph etc etc

Andy - your question is a little confusing as the above requirement would be load specific.

Some of the "dirty bird" targets have 1" markings horizontally and vertically - these make it easy to asses where a group is "forming" when zeroing the scope (or adjusting for wind) and not having to walk up to the targets to "asses".

 

[lrgoodger]

You cannot teach holdover for different ranges with a target. The same is true for windage in strong winds or longer distances. My 6BR bullet travelling at 2880 fps drops 70 inches from the 100 yard zero at 600 yards, so to shoot both distances on the same target, one would need a target over 6 feet tall. The same goes for windage at 600 yards in a 15 mph wind.

6BRinNZ is absolutely correct. The second you change guns or loads, all of your elevation and windage data changes and you have to start all over again. There is an article in the current issue of Precision Shooting about an old timer who could "take the devilment out of a crosswind". He says that one of the critical things he learned in being able to shoot in the wind was to develop a good load and stick to it. He had been shooting the same load for years and knew exactly how much it was going to drop or drift at specific distances and winds.

Once you have that load, you can develop drop charts for it so you know how much to adjust the scope for each distance. I choose to hold over for distance using a graduated reticle. That saves wear and tear on the turrets and eliminates the possibility of getting lost when clicking the turret up and down.

Attached is the drop chart I developed for my custom .243 using the indicated load. The scope is a Schmidt & Bender first focal plane PMII. With the first focal plane scope, the drop chart stays the same at any magnification. The field of view changes with magnification as indicated by the circles marked with magnification settings. If you use a second focal plane scope (which is what most people have), the drop chart changes with every magnification.

The dual drop chart shows the difference in bullet travel at each graduation (caused by the difference in atmospheric pressure due to elevation) between Cass County, Michigan were I live and the Newcastle, Wyoming area where I hunt prairie dogs.

I developed my drop chart by shooting a target at every 50 yards from 50 to 500 and checking bullet drop from my zero (250 yds) at each distance. I then used a ballistic calculator program and tweaked the ballistic coefficient of the bullet until the curve on the calculator fit my target data. That curve was used to obtain the rest of the drop chart beyond 500 yards. The chart is dead on for my gun and scope with that load. I've killed many a prairie dog beyond 500 yards to prove it.

Good luck with your classes.

 

[ANDY T]

Hi Thanks for all your reply's
The target needed is just to tech my club shooter a rough guide to how the set the scope up for different distances and wind condition
something like in the attachment i have just done.

Andy

 

[lrgoodger]

That's what I thought you had in mind.

Again, a bullet travelling 2880 fps will drop about 270 inches at 1000 yards/meters. Your target would have to be over 25 feet tall!!

When shooting 1000 yards in a 15 mph crosswind in Wyoming last spring, the same bullets were being blown 8 to 10 feet off the target. You will need one heck of a big target to hit it at both 100 yards and 1000 yards with the same gun and load if you want to show actual drop and wind on the same target.

I recommend you download the free Excel spreadsheet ballistics program found here http://jacksonrifles.com/ballistics.htm and teach your shooters how to use it. It is very accurate. It always gets me on the target the first time out to 500 yards when I try a new load. I have attached a sample calculation for the 105 grain A-max bullet for every 50 yards out to 1250. You will see I had to fudge the BC to get it to fit my actual impact points out to 500 yards, but it has proven accurate. At distances out to 500 yards it will get you on a sheet of notebook paper using the bullet mfg BC if you know how many clicks up with your elevation turret correlate to the elevation MOA column.

 

[necchi]

What you came up with is a good visual guide, but you going to face some confusion from some guy's if you plan to use the target at 100. The adjustments will be too small.

Providing actual drop and drift graphs from a ballistics program with MOA adjustments and getting guy's too understand that most scopes are setup with 1/4" clicks for 100 but have MOA numbers on the dial. I find graphs easier for most to understand than all the numbers on a data sheet, it's a better visual.

Teaching MOA can be tuff, heck just getting some people to grasp that the dot's on their MOA scope aren't inches can be an exercise in futility.

Here's a free downloadable program that you can put random/common speeds and data into and print graphs. I find the wind drift chart to be very helpfull.
http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=pointblank

 

[ANDY T]

Hi Accurate Shooter
Thanks for your reply so it seems as thou there is nothing out there to teach shooter how to practical use a scope. plenty on the theory side none on the practical side.

I don't under stand why people keep saying it has to be caliber specific if it just to teach some one how to use a scopes wind-age and elevation they don't need to be able to hit the bull at 300-600-800 just to get them to understand how dial in at different distances and different wind speed so when they go to a long range the can get onto the target quickly and not having shots go array and not know where there shots have gone [safety is everything].

Could you point me to someone you know with the technical experience that could help me with the problem.

Regards
Andy

 

[Flat Land Shooter]

There is a lot of information about drop and wind that is very useful, but as has been noted every combination is different. One way to show your students how to change a scope and what happens when you do is: Get set up at say 100 yards, put up a 100 yard target, use the dot as the point of aim and shoot. Then make adjustment of 8 clicks on the elevation knob, use the same target and the same dot as the point of aim and shoot again. Now you should have two holes in different locations which you can use to explain why the change and how it will relate to distance changes.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Hi Accurate Shooter
Thanks for your reply so it seems as thou there is nothing out there to teach shooter how to practical use a scope. plenty on the theory side none on the practical side.

I don't under stand why people keep saying it has to be caliber specific if it just to teach some one how to use a scopes wind-age and elevation they don't need to be able to hit the bull at 300-600-800 just to get them to understand how dial in at different distances and different wind speed so when they go to a long range the can get onto the target quickly and not having shots go array and not know where there shots have gone [safety is everything].

Could you point me to someone you know with the technical experience that could help me with the problem.

Regards
Andy

Hi Andy - These are my thoughts on how I would go about teaching what you want. I apologise in advance if it is telling you how to suck eggs...its just that I can see you getting a little frustrated and what you are doing is good for the sport...so what ever you decide to do...Good Luck in your endeavour

Initially I would only talk about elevation as windage is dependant on speed and direction.

I would discuss the concept of MOA (not sure how you will approach if the scope isn't in MOA) as a measurement and how it relates to the scope (.25 moa clicks) and impact point on the target at 100 yards. I would use a simple ballistic program print out (the Berger one is free and very simple from an input point of view) of a .308 and say a 7mm to demonstrate how they will need to determine the "come ups" for their rifle.

Using either the two examples above or their data entered into the ballistic program they should be able to tell you how many MOA they need to crank on to "zero" at the intended distance. If they get this wrong they stay in the theory until the penny drops. If they get it right, it would then lead to what the "U" and "L" mean on their turrets. i.e. which way to turn the turret to “crank on” the elevation and or windage.

You could then get them setup on the range at what ever distance (shorter would be better…I would stay under 300 so that wind doesn’t play too great a part) and under direction they could crank on the MOA to get an appropriate elevation zero for the range.

They should be able to then fire a shot and validate their assessment. At that point you can go into getting them to calculate what they would need to crank on for the next 100yards and fire again, they should be able to state how high it should impact since they haven’t moved (using the ballistics program as a reference). Once they have done this they are good to go for elevation.

Windage – they need to understand that speed and direction are important. Again the ballistic application will demonstrate this by entering in either 1 o’clock two o’clock or 3 o’clock for direction with the same wind speed. I would prepare charts upfront using the .308 and 7mm examples. I will upload an example later.

They would then need to make an assessment of the wind (under direction), crank the turret and fire.

As mentioned I would simply use targets that have 1" gridlines as this cements the concept of MOA changes to units we are used to measuring in.

I have attached a windage chart that I use at the range, in this case for 500 yards. The left hand column is increments up to 20mph. The top row is MOA. Estimate the wind speed and trace a horizontal line to the wind direction arrow. Follow the vertical line up will give you your MOA. I find it a good visual aid to the difference wind direction makes.

Again - good luck Andy.

 

[Catfish]

I don`t think you can teach shooters to be proficient to shoot accurately at long range, but you should have no trouble getting them on the right path. They say that hold drop is sience and wind drift is an art, which is true to a point. Wind drift is definately an art, as you can only measure the wind direction and speed where you are, and it can change speed and driection several times between you and the target. Bullet drop can easily be calculated, but the varition in the speed of the bullet will start makeing a difference as you get to longer ranges so you must keep you es down as low as you can. Sound like a fun, and chalenging task, good luck.

 

[Redhighpower]

Andy T. I think you are making it too compicated. You don't want to overwelm them with too much tech information. I would set up small bore 100 yrd targets the ones with three 100 yard targets. Using a sharpie pen draw a line thru the center of the three targets. When you set the targets use a plumb line on the line you drew, this way the targets will be perpendicular to the ground.
You can even put in hash marks every inch. Most guys probably will be shooting .308 or .223. Using the bullet drop section in the reloading manuals have them determine how much their perticular bullets will drop at different yardages. It doesn't have to be perfect. Get some Wind charts for 223 and 308. for 1/4 minute ,they may have them already if they have score books. Make sure they all have 100 yrd zero's. Have them shoot three shots at the lowest target and then have adjust for next yardages. They will get the idea. Using the windage charts have them adjust for different wind conditions. Larry