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Help me understand what I am seeing.

Again...Freebore and headspace are not even related and are not even measured from the same points. Freebore starts at the end of the (typically) 45° bevel at the end of the chamber case mouth area and ends where it starts to taper from nominal groove diameter to bore diameter. That area is called the throat. The freebore can be referred to as the lead and is a straight section that's equal to or slightly larger than the bbl groove diameter. But once more, the lead and throat (freebore) are not even related to headspace in any way and are not measured from the same places. On top of that, the freebore will be the same length no matter how far the chamber reamer is run into the chamber. So it's impossible to change the freebore by altering the hs. I'm not sure I can put this any clearer than that.

OP, check or have the headspace set using a go and a no go guages. It doesn't get any easier than that and you'll need a go gauge to set the hs properly if it needs a small adjustment. Forget anything to do with your brass until you verify the hs is within the go and no go gauges!

When setting up your dies, that's when you'll measure a fired case with your comparator vs a sized piece of brass. Set the dies where the sized piece is .002-.003 shorter than the fired case. It's that simple. Notice I did not mention using a comparator to measure the hs gauge. That's because a comparator is not the way to measure anything. Rather, it's a COMPARE-A-TOR. It's only use is to compare two pieces of brass see how much shorter your sized brass is than your fired brass. They're only good at showing a difference but not an actual accurate measurement of anything.

I don't care what you've read or heard anywhere else. It was either wrong or you simply misunderstood what you read. Read my post slowly and without any preconceived notions about anything. Your life will get easier and you'll answer all of your questions related to this. The only way your freebore got longer was if a different reamer was used, with a longer freebore area, or it was throated longer in a separate step using a throating reamer. Still. it has zero to do with headspace, either way.
 
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Again...Freebore and headspace are not even related and are not even measured from the same points. Freebore starts at the end of the (typically) 45° bevel at the end of the chamber case mouth area and ends where it starts to taper from nominal groove diameter to bore diameter. That area is called the throat. The freebore can be referred to as the lead and is a straight section that's equal to or slightly larger than the bbl groove diameter. But once more, the lead and throat (freebore) are not even related to headspace in any way and are not measured from the same places. On top of that, the freebore will be the same length no matter how far the chamber reamer is run into the chamber. So it's impossible to change the freebore by altering the hs. I'm not sure I can put this any clearer than that.

OP, check or have the headspace set using a go and a no go guages. It doesn't get any easier than that and you'll need a go gauge to set the hs properly if it needs a small adjustment. Forget anything to do with your brass until you verify the hs is within the go and no go gauges!

When setting up your dies, that's when you'll measure a fired case with your comparator vs a sized piece of brass. Set the dies where the sized piece is .002-.003 shorter than the fired case. It's that simple. Notice I did not mention using a comparator to measure the hs gauge. That's because a comparator is not the way to measure anything. Rather, it's a COMPARE-A-TOR. It's only use is to compare two pieces of brass see how much shorter your sized brass is than your fired brass. They're only good at showing a difference but not an actual accurate measurement of anything.

I don't care what you've read or heard anywhere else. It was either wrong or you simply misunderstood what you read. Read my post slowly and without any preconceived notions about anything. Your life will get easier and you'll answer all of your question related to this. The only way your freebore got longer was if a different reamer was used, with a longer freebore area, or it was throated longer in a separate step using a throating reamer. Still. it has zero to do with headspace, either way.
Did you make sure to type slowly so it was easier to read slowly?
 
Guys,
I understand that freebore and headspace are two different things. And I understand how to control headspace by simply bumping the shoulder back. I am not trying to solve a problem. I am only trying to understand the measurements that I obtained earlier and learn a little something along the way. Again, I am not trying to solve a problem. Yes, it would be very easy to use a NOGO gauge and move on. But that would only tell me if the headspace was less than a NoGo value or greater than a NoGo value. I want to have a better understanding of what the actual headspace is. The freebore is what it is. It has increased for a given bullet that I have measured prior to the rifle service and after. That is something I am still trying to understand. Will talk with Savage at some point.
 
I want to have a better understanding of what the actual headspace is. The freebore is what it is. It has increased for a given bullet that I have measured prior to the rifle service and after. That is something I am still trying to understand. Will talk with Savage at some

Headspace is one specification.

Freebore is another.

They are independent of one another and can not be combined.
 
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Attached is a reamer print from Manson reamers. The freebore length is called out as .155" for this particular reamer. So it is correct to say that a chamber cut with this particular reamer would have a freebore measurement of .155". This particular print does not give the headspace dimension.
The headspace dimension is specified by SAAMI as the distance between the bolt face and a datum line on the case shoulder that is .330" in diameter. And it has an acceptable range of between 1.4636" (minimum) and 1.4736" (maximum). Anything including or between those 2 measurements is considered in spec.

Now, perhaps you can see the difficulty in attempting to measure the freebore alone.

If you attempt to use a bullet and a comparator, you will not get a dimension measurement that represents the freebore. You will get a measurement that represents the contact of the ogive on that PARTICULAR bullet with the lands which are cut at an angle. And that dimension will be LONGER than the actual freebore.

And again, the freebore dimension has NOTHING to do with the headspace dimension.

If you want the precise actual headspace measurement for your chamber, a set of gauges like shown in post #86 will get you really, really close. But at the end of the day, the precise measurement does not matter provided it is within spec. (Minimum and Maximum).
 

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Guys,
I understand that freebore and headspace are two different things. And I understand how to control headspace by simply bumping the shoulder back. I am not trying to solve a problem. I am only trying to understand the measurements that I obtained earlier and learn a little something along the way. Again, I am not trying to solve a problem. Yes, it would be very easy to use a NOGO gauge and move on. But that would only tell me if the headspace was less than a NoGo value or greater than a NoGo value. I want to have a better understanding of what the actual headspace is. The freebore is what it is. It has increased for a given bullet that I have measured prior to the rifle service and after. That is something I am still trying to understand. Will talk with Savage at some point.
The only way to answer this question is if Savage can provide before and after diameters along with the actual lengths. You sent the rifle back because of a diameter problem. If we use the reamer print posted by DShortt…

If the freebore diameter is as little as .0005”, it basically eliminates the freebore entirely. A .224” diameter bullet does not enter a .2239” hole freely. The freebore is still there, it’s only semi free and will cause false readings if you’re sensitive enough using proper tools. If you polish the chamber and remove .0002”, you now have a usable freebore due to a 2241” diameter. The bullet will be able to move forward to the lands.

The minimum headspace is actually clearly defined. But it will be a floating number based on the allowable tolerances listed, how far the reamer travels into the chamber when being chambered and how the barrel is installed. Mix and match the tolerances all you want and then do the math. You can calculate where the .330” diameter will be on the shoulder, but that won’t be where it is in relationship to the bolt face. Because of the previous reasons.

As for figuring out the actual headspace dimension of your chamber, there are plenty of of tools designed to do that. None of them will have the word comparator in the title or description. There are a number of workarounds describe in this thread.

You might also carefully read the disclaimer informing users of the custom non SAAMI reamer, that measured base to ogive length will appear off based on a simple change of the angle in the transition area from case neck to freebore.

IMG_0134.jpeg
 
I think I have generated some data that has answered my question on the rifle’ s headspace. At this point, this is what I know.

1) The Lee resizing die, that I am using, will move the shoulder of a fired 223 Remington case approximately 9 thousandths of an inch when the die is set for a slight cam over during resizing.
2) A check of the headspace, using Foster Go and NoGo gauges, indicates the rifle is within specs for both gauges.

For those interested, the following is the process I performed and the results.

There were some comments on the Hornady Comparator being an instrument to compare absolute differences. Agreed. In order to use the Hornady Comparator to provide actual measurements to be compared to Go/NoGo gauges, I attempted to calibrated the Hornady Bushing against Forster Go and NoGo gauges. A comparison of the measured Go and NoGo lengths, using the Hornady Bushing and the labeled lengths on the gauges was done. Looks like the comparator bushing provides a value that is approximately 0.007” less that the actual. A value of 0.007” was added to the comparator bushing measurements for each 223 Remington case. This should give a good approximation of the actual measurements of the 223 Remington cases.



Hornady Comparator Calibration
Forster NoGo Gauge
Forster Go Gauge
Difference
Labeled
1.4666
1.4636
0.0030
Measured
1.4600
1.4565
0.0035
Difference
0.0066
0.0071
For Adjusting
Avg. Difference
0.0069

I measured the cartridge headtodatum length of five loaded 223 rounds. These measurements were made with primers installed. The cases were collet die resized prior to reloading. The fired cases were deprimed and again the cartridge headtodatum lengths were measured. Being collet die sized, I did not expect any differences in the cartridge headtodatum length measurements. It was observed that the average of the fired cases’ shoulder datum measurements was approximately 2 thousandths less than the loaded rounds. I thought that the primers may have been seated high. The RCBS Primer Tool was purchased in the mid-80s. There could be so wear causing high primers. RCBS recently replaced the old primer rods with the updated versions. The new small primer rod may be a little short or the primer tool worn.


I measured the cartridge headtodatum length of five collet die resized cases without primers installed. I then seated primers in the five cases and measured the cartridge headtodatum length. There was not any difference between the measurements of the five cases. No problem with the RCBS hand primer. A shortening of the cartridge headtodatum length, classified by others as increase in headspace, has been observed by others when firing subsonic velocity lead cast bullets. However, the 223 Remington was not noted as experiencing the shorting. It is solved by drilling out the flash hole slightly to increase the exposure of the powder to the primer flash. At the pressures my 223 loads are operating, this should not be a problem. Have no idea why I got the measurements that I got.

The fired cases were full length resized with just a slight cam over. It is known that die manufactures cut their dies with the intent that resizing will not resize a case such that it exceeds the minimum SAAMI spec. The intent is to prevent the oversizing of the cases. The average of the corrected cartridge headtodatum length measurements, for the resized cases, was 1.4569”. When compared to the corrected cartridge headtodatum length measurements, for the corrected fired cases, 1.4663”, the comparative difference is 0.0094”. Looks like, with full length resizing a fired case, the shoulder will move back approximately 9 thousandths of an inch. I think this is a good comparative analysis.


I think Mark Twain said, “If you beat the data hard enough, it will tell you anything you want to know”. This may be the case here.


Case
Loaded Round
Adjusted Loaded Round
Fired Case
Adjusted Fired Case
FL Sized Case
Adjusted FL Case
1
1.4610
1.4679
1.4595
1.4664
1.4500
1.4569
2
1.4595
1.4664
1.4590
1.4659
1.4505
1.4574
3
1.4605
1.4674
1.4600
1.4669
1.4505
1.4574
4
1.4605
1.4674
1.4590
1.4659
1.4495
1.4564
5
1.4660
1.4729
1.4595
1.4664
1.4495
1.4564
Avg
1.4615
1.4684
1.4594
1.4663
1.4500
1.4569
SD
0.0023
0.0023
0.0004
0.0004
0.0004
0.0004

I do not FL resize my brass, so oversizing and headspace control is not a concern for me. My intent was to feel comfortable that, if I sold the rife, it would not be sold with excess headspace. I feel comfortable now.
 
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