Heavy 90 gr VLD .224 bullets & optimum speed and twist rate...? PROJECT GUN

[Paul Arey]

I am building up another 220 Swift Ackley improved BUT.... just for lobbing out 70 to 90 gr VLDs. Yes I know there are better caliber choices out there for reaching out long range but I'm already all tooled up and invested in this gun/caliber/Improved cartridge (I have everything for it), plus I just love how it shoots and being just a bit different from the pack..... I was thinking of putting a gain twist barrel on a Savage Target Action – RB/LP...? Any thoughts out there on barrels, lengths & twist rates....? Specifically for the 90 gr VLD bullets...? I'll probable go with the Bergers. I mostly shoot Prairie dogs & coyotes. Looking for effective 900 to 1000 + yard accuracy. I shoot 55 gr bullets now which are deadly accurate and effective out to around 500 or 600 yards (farther with effort), after that the wind & drop plays havoc on them/me. I was considering a 30 inch gain twist 1-6.750 to 1-6.0 barrel ....? Overkill...? thoughts, Speeds, Twists, Loads, firsthand experience..? All comments welcome. Barrel life isn't my top priority. Thanks

 

[Snuggie]

I shoot the 90's in a 30 in 6.5 tw Bartlein 5R in my .223. For F/TR 600 yd matches. Extremely accurate !! Great in the wind too! Berger says optimum twist is 6.0 for them but hey, I'm very happy! Hope this helps some. Snuggie

 

[Paul Arey]

I shoot the 90's in a 30 in 6.5 tw Bartlein 5R in my .223. For F/TR 600 yd matches. Extremely accurate !! Great in the wind too! Berger says optimum twist is 6.0 for them but hey, I'm very happy! Hope this helps some. Snuggie

Thanks I appreciate the info. What kind of speed are you pushing them out at? Do they have a sweet spot off the lands that you start at? Powder? Much appreciated

 

[Snuggie]

Hi Paul! Running them at 2,750 with 24.5 gr Varget. Just touching the lands. Hope this helps. I have a 22-250 I was tinkering with the idea of re barreling. But I get 1/4 in groups at 200 with 40 grainers. Hard to re do something that shoots so we'll although only good for p-dogs, which we have zero of in Louisiana!! LOL!

 

[Ned Ludd]

A 7-twist is plenty at .223 Rem velocities of 2800 - 2850 fps. You're giving up a small amount of the maximum theoretical BC, but it's not a huge issue. At the velocities you could push them from a 220 Swift AI, a 7-twist would be plenty. Although the exact cause(s) may not be clear, some have experienced jacket failures with the 90 VLDs at .223 Rem velocities. If the issue is velocity/twist-related, I can only imagine it would be much worse at velocities well in excess of 3000 fps. I would keep the twist at 7.0 or perhaps even above.

 

[Barrel Nut]

I have had good luck shooting 80gr Berger VLDs from my 26" 1:7 twist Shilen .223 but poor results with the 90gr VLDs. I swapped the barrel for a 30" 1:6.5 twist PacNor and now the 90's work well at 2730 to 2740 fps using Varget. However, even though the 90's produce good accuracy most of the time and have a significantly better BC than the 80's, I notice some inconsistency with the 90's while the 80's produce small 5 shot groups more consistently than the 90's. So, like many things in the shooting sports, the decision isn't easy.

Every time I load up for an F/TR match, I'm torn between using the reliable 80's or the higher performing, but slightly less consistent 90's.

By the way, I have had less success with the Sierra 90's. I have tested both the Sierra 90's and Berger 90's to over 3000 fps, but I have experienced better precision at more moderate velocities. This holds true for the Berger 80's as well.

Of course, your mileage may (probably will) vary.

 

[Paul Arey]

I shoot the 90's in a 30 in 6.5 tw Bartlein 5R in my .223. For F/TR 600 yd matches. Extremely accurate !! Great in the wind too! Berger says optimum twist is 6.0 for them but hey, I'm very happy! Hope this helps some. Snuggie

Thanks for the reply Phil



Yeah I could use just a little understaning on what the Twist rate stability calculator recommends. From a bit of research I see the majority of the competition shooters are using around 1-7+ twist for the .224 Berger 90 VLDs..? This is slower than Berger's Twist rate stability calculator recommends...? Their calculator shows that at 2850 with a 1-7 90 vld SG = I.38 marginally stable, @ 1-6 SG = 1.88 comfortable stability...? I'm confused..! I see barrel length doesn't seem to be part of the stability calculator formula you think that might have something to do with it? Is Bergers calculations based on a particular short barrel length...? Thanks for any info, that part just has me a bit confused why the pros are choosing the slower twist rate as their preference..? They typically use 30 inch barrels and seem not to be having stability problems.

I am still contemplating on my barrel choice..? I am leaning towards making it a S.S. 5r, 1.250" straight cylinder barrel 30" long with a gain twist of 1-7.500 to 1-6.750...?

 

[Ned Ludd]

One thing to remember is that Berger's Twist Rate Calculator uses preset input values of 59 degrees F and 0 ft elevation. Unless you're going to be shooting on the beach in the winter, those values are going to be extremely conservative to the point of being of almost misleading. I typically use inputs of 65 degrees F and 1000 ft elevation which correspond to a reasonable average temperature and the elevation where I shoot most often. Changing the input values to something more realistic for the region(s) you'll shoot most often will give you a better idea of the magnitude of the effect of twist rate you might actually observe.

 

[Paul Arey]

I seem to be in the dilemma of the century, for me....? What to choose..? I am no expert on the mater thus my being here on the forum. Part of me wants a bit of gain in my next barrel. I know people are shooting great with & without. Now I'm just trying to pick the rate of gain for me...? Originally I was thinking of something like a .500 or .750 gain on a 30 inch barrel for the 90 gr vlds. But now I've learned that only a slight .100" or .250" gain has shown to really work good and most of the top shooters in the game are using those rates of twists or something close to them. Right when I was ready to go for the .750 rate of gain I learned this..! These 90s will be pushed out of a 220 Swift Improved so I can get them moving no problem. Now I'm procrastinating between .250" of gain or .750"...? Before I learned about this slight bit of gain working well I was pretty much set on doing something like a 7.500 t0 6.750.........now I'm kind of undecided again. I can develop loads for what works but really don't have tons of time to tinker around with various barrels & gain twist rates. There is a lot of knowledge here that I am hoping will save me some grief getting my choice narrowed down started in the right direction. Here where I am at in Montana my typical shooting I would say is 2900 feet @ 70 degrees, which gives me comfortable stability/1.76 with a 6.8 twist. I am not in a rush on the barrel I probably in all actuality won't pull the trigger on it until this Fall or the following Spring. my stand by gun is still doing it's job just fine with 55 gr ballistic tips!

 

[r bose]

Paul I can tell you I shoot mostly at sea level (or below sea level near New Orleans) and we have matches year round meaning we shoot in 30-35 degrees sometimes at the start of winter matches. I use a 7 twist with no problems. I think Berger gives a 6 twist for worst case scenario. If you had a 20" service rifle, maybe getting 2500-2550 FPS out of a gas gun, Then a faster twist would be necessary. Just my thoughts for Berger's very fast twist recommendation.

 

[Paul Arey]

Paul I can tell you I shoot mostly at sea level (or below sea level near New Orleans) and we have matches year round meaning we shoot in 30-35 degrees sometimes at the start of winter matches. I use a 7 twist with no problems. I think Berger gives a 6 twist for worst case scenario. If you had a 20" service rifle, maybe getting 2500-2550 FPS out of a gas gun, Then a faster twist would be necessary. Just my thoughts for Berger's very fast twist recommendation.

Thanks for the information. How far off or into the lands are you finding your best accuracy with the 90 gr VLD's...? I'm trying to see if I can find any consistent agreement among users on that so I have a good place to start when I start working loads up for this gun.

 

[r bose]

I always start any VLD in the lands 10-20 thousands. I currently shoot the 90's 20 in the lands

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'm one of the few that's running them between .015" and .020" off the lands. I started them at .010" into the lands with my first rifle. They shot "ok", but not great, maybe 0.5-0.6 MOA at best. I started moving them back out and they tuned in very nicely at about .004" into the lands, but it was an extremely narrow window. Once I had pulled them out to about .015" - .018" off the lands, the groups tightened up to one ragged hole. My newest .223 behaves exactly the same way with the 90s, so it wasn't just that first rifle.

My suggestion would be to try to choose your seating depth first. I'd start them between .015" to .020" off the lands initially. If they look like they want to shoot there, it's a little easier than developing a jammed load. If they don't, it should be pretty obvious and then you can back off on the charge weight and test from about .005" into the lands out to a hard jam. Due to the differences in pressure, I prefer to treat jumped versus jammed as two completely separate load developments, starting with jumped first, which is slightly easier IMO.

 

[raptor1ronin]

I'm with Greg on this one. I also shoot them off the lands.20 to be precise.

 

[Paul Arey]

Thanks for that bit of info. I'm just looking for a good place to start. Seems everyone has their own sweet spot! Did you use a particular sized freebore reamer in both your guns...? Thanks again

 

[Paul Arey]

I am back on this project after a 6 month hiatus with work. I finally got a special-order gain twist barrel from Bartlien. I am just trying to pick my freebore for the 90 gr. Berger VLDs this gun is being built for…? .169 inches seems to come up frequently when I check around. I am just looking here for any confirmation on that. Any advice out there is greatly appreciated. Are people that are shooting the 90 gr. VLDs successfully in competitions using a specific reamer for cutting the freebore/throat depth…? Would a live piloted throating reamer in .224 (which most gun smiths have) be sufficient for setting the freebore or is a special reamer recommended..?

 

[USMCDOC]

In my day.. when i was shooting the Berger 90 VLDs.. was using a 31" 7.2 twist barrel and pushing them at 2950. I wouldn't suggest that to everyone.. you're not going to get there with that 223 ISSF chamber in my opinion.. i really recommend doing a Wylde chamber and throating it where the bullet will be 10K above the neck shoulder join and be 10K into the lands.. But that is my opinion based on my 6 years experience with them!

 

[Paul Arey]

Some of the latest advice I have is to go for a freebore around .138 that way I have room to burn it into a sweet spot and shoot 80s & 90s. It’s a long range Prairie dog build not a competition rifle which I have heard pretty consistently are running a .169 freebore in matches for thr 90 gr. VLDs. Any disagreement out there on this…?

 

[Paul Arey]

Greg any freebore depth advice for a varmit gun just built for the Berger 90 gr VLDs...? My barrel pick ended up being a Bartlien S.S. 5r, 1.250" straight cylinder barrel 31" long with a gain twist of .750, 1-7.500 to 1-6.750
You seem to have a bit of experience with these bullets.

 

[stacy]

I SHOOT A 223 IMPROVED 1/7 30'' WITH .169 FREEBORE AND THE 90GR VLD'S SHOOTS VERY WELL WITH VARGET AND I SHOOT 80 VLD'S WITH RL-15 WITH TINY BUGHOLE GROUPS 80GR ARE LITTLE BETTER THAN WITH THE 90 GRS GROUP WISE