Been using ESP analogs for about 6 years now. Love them. Actually, the sales person offered to buy them back at the original price towards a set of digital s last month. Thinking about it.
Hearing Protection/Enhancement
- Thread starter Rick Ratzlaff
- Start date
kolar55
Silver $$ Contributor
My ESP's are analog and they still work-but they seem to be losing it a bit. They are getting pretty old and the fit seems a bit loose. They seem to leak at times. However I sure can't complain. They have served me well for a long time. If the Etymotics don't work out I'll be going back to the ESP's.
With a 'name' like yours, they are almost essential. I used the semi smurf gun from Beretta.
Judd
Gold $$ Contributor
I was using the molded plugs and Impact electronic. I hated the muffs because they aren't comfortable and hot in the summer.
A buddy of mine recommended a pair of MSA muffs...it's their top of the line with the gel cups. They are the best I've used to date and just wearing them alone seems to be as good as the plugs and muffs I was wearing before.
A buddy of mine recommended a pair of MSA muffs...it's their top of the line with the gel cups. They are the best I've used to date and just wearing them alone seems to be as good as the plugs and muffs I was wearing before.
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PMAS3,
Very good question. First, the GSP-15 has a fairly low NRR around 26. BUT you have to consider how that number is derived. OSHA has the manufacturer test the attenuation best case (in the case of the GSP-15 about 38dB) then they must subtract the lack of attenuation due to poor choice of ear tip or improper insertion. That number becomes the NRR rating.
I recommend either the grey foam tip or the white silicon tip with 3 ridges. Both of these do well and are not to hard to insert properly. The foam is best but they get grotty quick. I use the silicon tip. You do have to figure out how best to insert them in your specific ears.
For the fellow above questioning whether his GSP-15 was "losing it." There is a little piece of material in the end of the outlet which the tip fits on. That is actually an acoustic resistor and helps make the fidelity so good. This little "plug" also is a sacrificial protector for the little speaker in the device. Without this little plug, any ear wax that gets into the speaker will ruin it. When the plug gets packed with wax, there is a little tool that comes with the GSP-15 that is used to remove the plug and there is a little bag with some extra "filters" in the package.
Extra filters as well as ear tips are available on line from Etymotic Research.
Very good question. First, the GSP-15 has a fairly low NRR around 26. BUT you have to consider how that number is derived. OSHA has the manufacturer test the attenuation best case (in the case of the GSP-15 about 38dB) then they must subtract the lack of attenuation due to poor choice of ear tip or improper insertion. That number becomes the NRR rating.
I recommend either the grey foam tip or the white silicon tip with 3 ridges. Both of these do well and are not to hard to insert properly. The foam is best but they get grotty quick. I use the silicon tip. You do have to figure out how best to insert them in your specific ears.
For the fellow above questioning whether his GSP-15 was "losing it." There is a little piece of material in the end of the outlet which the tip fits on. That is actually an acoustic resistor and helps make the fidelity so good. This little "plug" also is a sacrificial protector for the little speaker in the device. Without this little plug, any ear wax that gets into the speaker will ruin it. When the plug gets packed with wax, there is a little tool that comes with the GSP-15 that is used to remove the plug and there is a little bag with some extra "filters" in the package.
Extra filters as well as ear tips are available on line from Etymotic Research.
Norm,
Even if I use your "best" number of 38dB, then subtract it from the "AVERAGE" dB rifle blast of 150 dB, that gives me a number of 112dB entering the ear; quite a bit more (about 27%) than the 82dB from the Sordin's. The 112dB seems to be a very high "suppressed number".
Many
of the "professional" makers put noise-reduction labels on their products by picking the frequency range with the greatest reduction , then calling that the noise-reduction rating. That is an unfortunate reality you learn when going through the safety training classes regarding hearing protection at a nuke plant. Beware of the claims when choosing.
of the "professional" makers put noise-reduction labels on their products by picking the frequency range with the greatest reduction , then calling that the noise-reduction rating. That is an unfortunate reality you learn when going through the safety training classes regarding hearing protection at a nuke plant. Beware of the claims when choosing.
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PMA3
I think you (and most folks reading ads) are a bit mis-informed. If you have a "perfect" plug in your ear canal, your mastoid bone will couple sound with an attenuation of about 40 dB. This parallel sound path represents the best case attenuation you can get.
When a device specification says the amplifier-speaker can only output 83 dB SPL, the effective sound at your cochlea will be the sum of 83 dB SPL plus the gun blast (say, 165 dB SPL) through the mastoid bone which will in this case be ~165-40 or 125 dB SPL. The extra 83 dB SPL is not an issue. Another example, the Etymotic GSP-15 can output up to ~117 dB SPL to the ear drum. The same 165 dB SPL blast will be attenuated down to 125 dB SPL by the mastoid bone making the 117 dB of the GSP-15 of minimal effect.
I think you (and most folks reading ads) are a bit mis-informed. If you have a "perfect" plug in your ear canal, your mastoid bone will couple sound with an attenuation of about 40 dB. This parallel sound path represents the best case attenuation you can get.
When a device specification says the amplifier-speaker can only output 83 dB SPL, the effective sound at your cochlea will be the sum of 83 dB SPL plus the gun blast (say, 165 dB SPL) through the mastoid bone which will in this case be ~165-40 or 125 dB SPL. The extra 83 dB SPL is not an issue. Another example, the Etymotic GSP-15 can output up to ~117 dB SPL to the ear drum. The same 165 dB SPL blast will be attenuated down to 125 dB SPL by the mastoid bone making the 117 dB of the GSP-15 of minimal effect.
Judd
Gold $$ Contributor
To that point...doesn't muff's protect the mastoid and assist in reducing the db that gets tot he ear? I'm asking attempting to understand, not attempting a debate. I'm ignorant to all of this but have heard the muff's help with reducing db that get to the mastoid. That was from an audiologist that I went to get the molds made for the custom plugs...she suggested them and muffs. Granted, she was in a yuppie part of Dallas and not real versed at the gun sports. But was definitely easy on the eyes
Norm,
I, like JUDD above, am not debating, just trying to understand what dB level is "SAFE" to enter the ear. If the Sordin's are suppressing the db level to 82 entering the ear, and the GSP -15's are suppressing the dB level to 117 entering the ear, are both SAFE? I'm trying to find out what the dB number has to be before it isn't safe to enter the ear.
JUDD and PMAS3
First, the "83dB" isn't really defined. Most electronic hearing protection use a compressor amplifier. That is exactly the amplifier used in hearing aids for people with a mild to moderate sensorinaural hearing loss. Your normal ear has high gain for soft sounds and this"gain" decreases as sound gets louder till at about 90 dB SPL the gain remains fixed. With a sensorinaural loss, you lose some or all of the soft sound gain so the hearing aid gives that back to you.
In electronic hearing protection, the gain for soft sounds is (in the case of the GSP-15) 15 dB rising to 0 dB above 90 dB SPL 15 dB is about a gain in volume of ~5.6. Of course most also have a switch allowing another bit of gain as well. After the SPL exceeds 90 dB, the output tracks the input till a pre-determined level is reached where the output is clamped . In the case of the GSP-15 that is about 117 dB SPL The device you asked about could have clipping at 83 dB SPL but that would be over-kill I think. The 117dB SPL maximum at the output , compared to the 38 dB of attenuation when the device is properly fitted are right even with the outside sound being attenuated by the mastoid bone for an increase due to addition of only couple dB. Certainly, a gun at 170 dB SPL impulse minus 40 dB of the mastoid bone is still 130 dB SPL, but it is what it is. It is not as bad as one would expect as steady state noise, like working next to jet planes as I did many years ago in the navy, 130 dB SPL would do in your hearing in short order. But impulse noise lasts only milliseconds and doesn't have nearly the energy. Incidentally, sound is measured in both pressure (SPL or sound pressure level) and energy. SPL is the common measure of level. SPL, as it is a pressure, increases level 10 times for a 20 dB increase and sound energy increases 10 times for 10 dB increase. Forget the 10 for 10, as SPL is 10 for 20. The effective limit of sound exposure is a function of both level; and time. When I was writing articles about hearing protection for motorcycle riders, that was the combination as wearing a helmet exposed one to pretty severe noise over a day of riding. but shooting 50 rounds or so at the range with competent protection (yello foamies or good electronic protection, NOT muffs) your exposure is very minimal, tho LOUD.
About ear muffs. People do not want to hear what I say about muffs as they know better. Wrong, you cannot determine your noise exposure without a lot of equipment! Yes, you can get VERY competent ear muffs. But for shooters, they are not popular as 1. they are Very expensive and 2. they are very BIG. To seal properly and exclude the path through the mastoid bone, they must be large with carefully designed insulation and seal geometry.) The popular muffs that do not get in the way of shooting and don't cost an arm and a leg typically have an NRR of around 26-28 and still can offer less due to improper fit. In reality, some other protection devices are also rated at 26-28 as well, but the muffs cannot be worn "better" to improve the attenuation. It will always be 26-28 dB. With plugs like yellow foamies and many electronic protection, an improved, careful insertion can up the attenuation from 28 dB worse case to 38-40 dB best case. And, a popular misconception about muffs is that you can wear foamies under them and get up to 66 dB attenuation (28 +38) but it doesn't work that way thanks to the mastoid bone, but that combination will offer maximum protection but you can't hear the guy next to you when he hollers "watch out!"
And that is why I wear Etymotic GSP-15. Relatively inexpensive, good situational awareness, high fidelity
and normal hearing for soft sounds!
At the end of the day, the "83 dB" device and the GSP-15 are probably nearly identical in protection. The minimum protection is as close to a device attenuation of 40 dB and a maximum output around 115 dB that you can get!
First, the "83dB" isn't really defined. Most electronic hearing protection use a compressor amplifier. That is exactly the amplifier used in hearing aids for people with a mild to moderate sensorinaural hearing loss. Your normal ear has high gain for soft sounds and this"gain" decreases as sound gets louder till at about 90 dB SPL the gain remains fixed. With a sensorinaural loss, you lose some or all of the soft sound gain so the hearing aid gives that back to you.
In electronic hearing protection, the gain for soft sounds is (in the case of the GSP-15) 15 dB rising to 0 dB above 90 dB SPL 15 dB is about a gain in volume of ~5.6. Of course most also have a switch allowing another bit of gain as well. After the SPL exceeds 90 dB, the output tracks the input till a pre-determined level is reached where the output is clamped . In the case of the GSP-15 that is about 117 dB SPL The device you asked about could have clipping at 83 dB SPL but that would be over-kill I think. The 117dB SPL maximum at the output , compared to the 38 dB of attenuation when the device is properly fitted are right even with the outside sound being attenuated by the mastoid bone for an increase due to addition of only couple dB. Certainly, a gun at 170 dB SPL impulse minus 40 dB of the mastoid bone is still 130 dB SPL, but it is what it is. It is not as bad as one would expect as steady state noise, like working next to jet planes as I did many years ago in the navy, 130 dB SPL would do in your hearing in short order. But impulse noise lasts only milliseconds and doesn't have nearly the energy. Incidentally, sound is measured in both pressure (SPL or sound pressure level) and energy. SPL is the common measure of level. SPL, as it is a pressure, increases level 10 times for a 20 dB increase and sound energy increases 10 times for 10 dB increase. Forget the 10 for 10, as SPL is 10 for 20. The effective limit of sound exposure is a function of both level; and time. When I was writing articles about hearing protection for motorcycle riders, that was the combination as wearing a helmet exposed one to pretty severe noise over a day of riding. but shooting 50 rounds or so at the range with competent protection (yello foamies or good electronic protection, NOT muffs) your exposure is very minimal, tho LOUD.
About ear muffs. People do not want to hear what I say about muffs as they know better. Wrong, you cannot determine your noise exposure without a lot of equipment! Yes, you can get VERY competent ear muffs. But for shooters, they are not popular as 1. they are Very expensive and 2. they are very BIG. To seal properly and exclude the path through the mastoid bone, they must be large with carefully designed insulation and seal geometry.) The popular muffs that do not get in the way of shooting and don't cost an arm and a leg typically have an NRR of around 26-28 and still can offer less due to improper fit. In reality, some other protection devices are also rated at 26-28 as well, but the muffs cannot be worn "better" to improve the attenuation. It will always be 26-28 dB. With plugs like yellow foamies and many electronic protection, an improved, careful insertion can up the attenuation from 28 dB worse case to 38-40 dB best case. And, a popular misconception about muffs is that you can wear foamies under them and get up to 66 dB attenuation (28 +38) but it doesn't work that way thanks to the mastoid bone, but that combination will offer maximum protection but you can't hear the guy next to you when he hollers "watch out!"
And that is why I wear Etymotic GSP-15. Relatively inexpensive, good situational awareness, high fidelity
and normal hearing for soft sounds!
At the end of the day, the "83 dB" device and the GSP-15 are probably nearly identical in protection. The minimum protection is as close to a device attenuation of 40 dB and a maximum output around 115 dB that you can get!
kolar55
Silver $$ Contributor
The Etymotics arrived yesterday. I switched ear tips and put a couple batteries in, put them in my ears and seemed to get a very good seal. Dropped two shells in the .410 and stuck it out the deck door and let them rip. Then I compared me ESP's and the etymotic's definitely blocked out more of the gunshot. The noise with the Etymotic GSP-15 was very comfortable. So it is apparent the old ESP's aren't doing the job anymore. Hopefully the weather cooperates for a couple rounds of sporting clays this weekend. Then I'll find out how well they work for conversation and hearing the traps release. I haven't had the chance to use them with a rifle blast but I think they will cut enough noise to be ok. Might be able to do that this weekend too. I'll keep you posted. Lonnie
kolar55
Silver $$ Contributor
After a round of sporting the Etymotic gsp15 seemed ok. I have a pretty severe hearing loss and on high they gave me enough ability to converse with the other two guys but just barely. I still asked "what" a few more times than with the ESP's. The muzzle blast was comfortable though. Some of the ported guns can still be a bit loud if you're standing off to the side some. The size 10 batteries are a bit small and hard to deal with. I switched back to my old ESP analog's and I could communicate better but they defintely don't seal well at all anymore. The guy at ESP said I could trade for a new analog pair for $650. So I think I am going to go that route as the original pair has lasted a long time, the batteries last forever and they are way easier to get a hold of, and ESP's customer service is excellent.
The Howard Leight Impact Sports earmuffs amplify sound 3xActually hearing Aids.And protection.
Ya I know my bodies wearing out. Too many 7mmRM over the box of the pickup. Stupid kids.
Does anyone have a review on Sport Ear or other providers?
Connect Hearing would not give me my hearing test report. Crooks the lot of them.
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