Having second thoughts on 260.. seeking wisdom

[jimbo88mm]

For the guys that load 260.. how would you rate it in terms of how easy it is to find a good load?



My 260 is one of those poor man savage projects. I have a savage action (staggered feed) in a b&c medalist (bedded myself) with a ER Shaw varmint profile barrel and a SSS trigger.

After all that effort.. I can say its a reliable 1 MOA rifle. With the right load it can do a little better. Overall it's on par with most standard factory rifles. Honestly I was expecting it to shoot a little better than this. I realize the components I'm using are not world class.

With that said.. the 260 cartridge seems to be a little more finicky to tune then other chambers. With 223 and 30-06 I was able to dial into good loads right away. With this 260.. it takes me longer to find that right load.. and when I do find that right load it seems to open up after a couple of months and I have to tune again.

I am thinking about picking up a match grade barrel and upgrading my dies (currently standard rcbs) but if something like 6.5 creedmoor tunes easier than 260.. I may make the switch.

 

[navyrad8r]

Jimbo,
don't quit on it yet..what is your twist and current load? how far are you trying to shoot and what discipline?
I understand your pain...but share some details or send a PM.
Cheers,
Doc

 

[bheadboy]

this is not very kind, however, fwiw,

get a 700 factory, bed, and get 1/2moa
Bob

 

[jimbo88mm]

Jimbo,
don't quit on it yet..what is your twist and current load? how far are you trying to shoot and what discipline?
I understand your pain...but share some details or send a PM.
Cheers,
Doc

Discipline: Informal target shooting from a bench. Distance is mostly 100 yards but I do have access to a 1000 yard range (steel plates only from 500-1k).

1-8 twist 26 inch barrel. Total round count for the barrel is 765.

Ive tried the following powders:
H4350
H1000
Varget
ARComp
RL-17

H4350 and Varget are impossible to find locally but the others are available.

Bullets:
Nosler 120, 123 & 140s.
Amax 140s.


I attached a pdf to this post that contains all of the different loads I tried and the results. The groups are measured edge to edge. I did not subtract .264 from the group size. The results with an * include a flier.

The one thing you wont see is seating depth. Most of the loads are using published COAL measurements. I do not own a micrometer seating die or any other tools to measure head space (other than standard go/nogo gauges) so I can not say how far I am seating these bullets from the lands.

So that's my dilemma.. I don't want to buy a set of forster dies and other assorted tools and components if 260 isn't the answer after all.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Pick a powder and a bullet and do a proper load work up, don't stab in the dark and hope for the best. Buy a Hornady OAL comparator to measure to the lands as well as the ogive comparator for your calipers. They will work for the 6.5 Creedmore if you decide to switch.

 

[Dgd6mm]

this is not very kind, however, fwiw,

get a 700 factory, bed, and get 1/2moa
Bob
[/quote
Don't buy a 700.

You can get that rifle to shoot 1/2 moa as easy as a rembleton, and have a nicer rifle. I have an ershaw .260 barrel that shoots .5 moa with 140 amaxs and ramshot big game.

 

[GWY]

I've not found the 260 finicky to load for. I'm on my third barrel (8" or 8.5" twist Chanlynns or Kriegers) and all three have really liked 142 SMKs (jumped around .025") with H4350 and a Federal 210M. Out of 26" or 28" tubes I usually get around 2750fps.

 

[bsumoba]

i have a 6.5 creedmoor and it hammers. 1:8 twist, 26" barrel is what I have (albeit, its a custom deviant action, and bartlein barrel) i have a short range load and a match/long range/competition load.

41.5gr H4350 under a 140gr A-Max - jumped .020" - 2780fps shooting 1/4-sub3/8" groups
43.5gr H4350 under a 140gr Hybrid - jumped .040" - 2875fps shooting sub-3/8" groups - i know A LOT of guys with this charge weight and are either using 139scenar or 140hybrids

easier to mag feed and is less finicky because it is a little shorter than the 260 case.

sounds like you might need to play with seating depth. do a ladder test to find a powder weight range that has similar vertical, then take the middle of that rage and start playing with seating depth to tighten the groups up.

get a comparator so you can measure CBTO (cartridge base to ogive). this is the best way to measure, especially with bthp bullets.

with that said, there are plenty of tactical guys running 260 remington. the most common i see now is 260 remington, 6.5 creedmoor, 6mm creedmoor, 6.5x47 lapua, and some magnums like 6.5 SAUM .

 

[XTR]

You are reloading the way that hunters reload, pick a load and shoot minute of deer and they are happy.

If you are looking for better accuracy you need to take some steps to get there, and the $$ you spend on the parts to do that is less than what you have already spent on bullets trying to get a lucky poke.

Calipers and a Hornady OAL tool, badly named, but you need to know the distance that you are jumping or jamming.

The Hornady attachment that goes with your calipers to check the shoulders so you know how far to push it back, unless you're just neck sizing, but you still should have it, it's another $20 or so.

How are you prepping brass, what is your neck tension, are you bumping shoulders, are you letting the dies crimp? What dies are you using? There are a lot of things you can do reloading that will ruin the precision of your shots. Excessive variations in neck tension, excessive runout, inconsistent seating depth (esp if you are close to the lands) are some of the biggies.

By the way, if you are measuring your groups from outside to outside at 100 yards you can never shoot less than a .26 group. (The way you are doing it, if you measure one hole it's now a .26 group right?) If your group sizes are all outside to outside then you are shooting .26 less than your posted numbers, and for someone stabbing in the dark some of it isn't that bad.

The last question is can you shoot better than what you are printing. What is your setup when you shoot, how good is your bag/rest setup? I'm going to guess that since your being frugal with your loading you have done so with your range set up too. At some point there is a scale of diminishing returns for $$ spent, but up to a point the return is significant. wobble in your front or rear supports will result in big groups.

Most folks don't get lucky enough to just pick a load and get a ½ MOA rifle.

Have you proven to yourself that you can consistently hold ½ MOA or better? It's not as easy as you might get the impression here. Cheek pressure, shoulder pressure, trigger pull, they can all put you outside of what you are trying to achieve.

 

[jimbo88mm]

I don't consider my loads as stabbing in the dark or loading hunter style (I don't hunt ). The data i showed in my attached results was sorted by group.. smallest at the top. I can see how it looks really scattered. Take my RL-17 with Nosler 123 custom competition loads for example:

40
40.5
41
41.5
42

43.3
43.5
43.7
44
44.5

I started with the first group.. topping out at 42. I had stopped because 41.5 looked really good with the first 3 groups coming in under 1 inch (the best 3 shot group measured .568 edge to edge). I thought.. great.. loaded up 20 more rounds. Never got under 1.3 inches again with that load. I knew the first batch of loads was on the low end so I tried again with the second group. 43.5 looked very promising.. but the next time out 43.5 shoots a 1.7 inch group ???

To answer a few questions that were asked:

How are you prepping brass, what is your neck tension, are you bumping shoulders, are you letting the dies crimp? What dies are you using?

Using standard rcbs full length and seater dies. I'm FL sizing for every reload. No crimp. Brass (RP) is trimmed via Lee cutter and drill. Primer pockets are uniformed (but not the flash holes.. another tool I need to get). I'm not uniforming the necks. My scale is a gempro 250.

The last question is can you shoot better than what you are printing. What is your setup when you shoot, how good is your bag/rest setup?

This is the question that led me to doubting my 260 and starting this thread. My AR-15 is a franken gun.. a RRA lower, a bull barrel double star upper with a 556 nato chamber, the standard 6lb pull trigger and a Simmons scope and it shoots circles around my 260. I shoot off the same front rest (Caldwell Rock BR) with the same rear bag. I've attached my 100 yard results for the AR.. the groups are measured outside to outside and this time sorted by powder and charge.. should look less random

So with the AR and its super heavy trigger pull, super cheap scope, no tweaking seating depth, using lee dies, many different bullets and powders and the same rest is having more success which led me to my original question about the .260 cartridge.

It is very possible that the AR ergonomics just work better for me than the Medalist stock I'm using with the 260.


Good feedback on using a Hornady OAL comparator.. I will defiantly pick up a set.

I've been reading through Erik's 75 page load development page. Sadly I have not been taking notice if my groups are vertical or horizontal. I will pay closer attention to this.

A couple more questions:

Is .5 increments good?

The Lee trimmers with the cordless drills.. I like them because they do three functions in one step (measure, trim, clear primer pocket of cleaning media) but I wonder if they are messing up the necks. Sometimes there is a bit of a wobble when the brass spins on the drill.

 

[bsumoba]

read this:

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

i think you are load developing incorrectly or are not effectively load developing. The OCW method (link2) is probably your best bet for 100 yd load development. you have to find what's called an accuracy node. the two links will help you understand what that is.

that said, your trimmer should be fine...i would upgrade to a bench mounted trimmer or a WFT2 trimmer for more consistent results.

what brass brand are you using?

do you notice any difference when seating the bullet? for example, some feel easier or harder to seat? if you feel differences, then you might have a problem with inconsistent neck thicknesses.

do you check your bullet runout? you should try to achieve 0.0005-0.001" runout. you can use a concentricity gauge.

also, temperature could be a factor. RE-17 is temperature sensitive. if you leave loaded rounds exposed to the sun, you could be causing issues and getting varying pressures and velocity. likewise, you could be leaving a loaded round in a heated up chamber too long, causing the same issues i just mentioned; higher pressures, higher velocities, thus resulting in varying results.

 

[dryhumor]

I have 3 260s, 1 is yet unfired.

The 2, have different barrels, length, twists, grooves; one is a long action one a short. Both shoot well. I've worked different bullets and primers, powders. Use Lapua cases for the most part, but occasionally use RP or Federal.

H4831SC works well for me, as does RE19. I try to have consistent cases and case prep. You didn't post that you have a chronograph. If you don't, it is a tool worth having.

Shooting at different times of day, different temps, and weather conditions can affect group size as well. Some days I shoot better in the evening than the morning, and vice versa.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

When I ditched the Remington brass, my loads came on in leaps and bounds. I'm currently running Lapua brass for 140 A-Max and at 580 yds yesterday the elevation spread in 6 shots was just under 2 inches. I've also had success with the Nosler 260 Rem brass, but keep the Lapua brass for competitions.

My Remington brass was all over the place in terms of weights and neck dimensions. I now just use the Lapua and Nosler brass as it comes out of the box.

Regards

JCS

 

[justpassinthru]

Try 49 grains of W760/H414 with 85 grain Sierra's seated to lightly touch the lands, in Lapua brass.
It works for me.

 

[red_mamba]

I don't consider my loads as stabbing in the dark or loading hunter style (I don't hunt ). The data i showed in my attached results was sorted by group.. smallest at the top. I can see how it looks really scattered. Take my RL-17 with Nosler 123 custom competition loads for example:

40
40.5
41
41.5
42

43.3
43.5
43.7
44
44.5

......

When I do load testing I use at least 100 bullets for load development.
I start with .5 gr increment from minimum to max load according to tables. I load 50 cases; 5 of which have same load.
If the min/ma pressure is to narrow I go with 10 cases same load.
Then I isolate the best result and load another 50 this time with 0.1 gr increments to cover the 'interesting' load area.

After that it's still room to fine tune stuff. Different primers, different bullet, different powder, OAL ...

But remember the golden rule.
Only change one parameter at a time when testing and looking for that accuracy load

regards,
David

 

[wyoming .260]

I have not found the .260 to be finicky, I load R-P brass with 130 gr. bergers jammed and a liberal dose of Reloder 17 and It shoots in the .3s regularly.It's a hunting and fun shoot gun. but finicky I would say not. I have shot some 120 gr Nosler Bts out of it and it did not care for them but I never really worked up a load for them. I have also shot some 130 gr. JLK's out of it , but just used my Berger load, and they shot better at 400 yds then the Bergers......

 

[ta406]

I've not found the 260 finicky to load for. I'm on my third barrel (8" or 8.5" twist Chanlynns or Kriegers) and all three have really liked 142 SMKs (jumped around .025") with H4350 and a Federal 210M. Out of 26" or 28" tubes I usually get around 2750fps.

I've found very similar results. When I first started load development on my new 260 I was using 140 Amax's and my groups were terrible no matter what powder and seating depth I tried. Never tried Noslers cause as soon as I tried the 142 SMK, everything fell into place.

 

[wapiti25]

I would get a Wilson in-line seater so your ammo is as straight as the brass. seat your bullets out to the lands, find the best safe powder charge then start seating deeper. I did not see what primer you are using but primer choice can make a big difference. Try cci BR's, Fed 210's, Wolf/Tula LRM's with single base extruded powder. H4831 or 4831 SSC may be a good powder for you.

 

[Barlow]

I read an article awhile back about 260's being hard to tune. I think it was on this forum somewhere. I don't own a 260 but have buds that do, and they like them. Try googling 260 Rem hard to tune and see what shows. Barlow

 

[brian427cobra]

I just switched from 260Rem to 6.5Creedmoor, there is certainly something to shooting a case with a 30degree ish shoulder.

So far after 1000 rounds my best groups are almost half of what my 260 could do.

Is the 260 hard to tune, compared to the Creedmoor, YES!

My 6.5 Creedmoor will push the same 140 Berger Hybrid, 140 AMax, 142SMK at the same speed with 2 ish less grains of H4350.

Did I mention smaller groups, my best 260 group was a solid .200 at 100, and the comps I shoot in that's more than ok, but the Creedmoor will consistently do almost half that, .095 is my best at 100 off a bipod, but most are in the .125 range

My next tube will be a 6.5x47, less powder, same speed, I hope better accuracy with better brass.

260rem is a good chambering, but there are better offerings out there that use less powder, which should equal longer barrel life, my 260 Bartlein tube went 4068 rounds.