Has Anyone Made a Chart or List of Clean to Dirty Powders?

[centershot]

Many postings and articles, there is a mention of this today on the bulletin, of powders being dirty and contributing to increase in pressure or loss of accuracy. Is there some sort of list or chart of clean and dirty powders? Not subjective, please.

 

[JMayo]

I've never seen one. Experience/ word of mouth.
And some disagreement ! I think that disagreement is why a list would be ever changing.
Tight group-dirty
Universal- not as bad
There's a start of a list !

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I think it matters more on your particular burn conditions more than powder makeup. Longer/shorter barrel, velocity, etc. you can burn retumbo in a 338lm with a 28” barrel and its totally different than burning it in a 375 h&h with an 18” barrel

 

[Toolbreaker]

Chamber pressure can dictate how dirty most any powder burns. A by-the-book starting load in a rifle will generally burn dirtier than a load in a rifle's upper limits.

 

[Homerange]

Would an indication of a dirty burn have any correlation with more muzzle flash ?
Less muzzle flash = cleaner and therefore fuller/better powder burn ?

 

[Kracken McGraw]

At the top of the list of dirty, has to be whatever Prvi- Partizan puts in their factory ammo.

 

[jds holler]

Over the years, I've shot so many lubed, cast bullets - usually over a charge of various Hercules/Alliant powders that dirty powder just doesn't bother me. I might even conject that dirty powder might prevent copper fowling. No proof mind you. jd

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Would an indication of a dirty burn have any correlation with more muzzle flash ?
Less muzzle flash = cleaner and therefore fuller/better powder burn ?

one thing ive noticed is that the sharper the crack of the muzzle blast the cleaner it is. like when you shoot a load that's just right it cracks real sharp but when you shoot a so-so load it jus goes boom. no scientific proof of this either I just noticed it while learning a PPC and it correlates to others now- like if I shoot 4350 in a 6.5x284 it cracks but retumbo just booms. same with 7828ssc in a 33nosler over h1000.

 

[fyrewall]

All sorts of stuff is added to smokeless powder - stabilizers, deterrents, graphite, carbon black, tin, and stuff having 10-12 letter words. Logically, some of this stuff won't get consumed thus "dirt". Possibly powders having calcium carbonate added to counteract acid decay would be among the dirtiest, I doubt that is added now. This is of no concern for me, select a proper powder, use the right amount, and clean up what remains. After shooting many rounds in my AR using CFE223 the bolt carrier and inside the receiver smell real bad but clean up real easy using automotive HEET, can't tell the difference with IMR8208.

 

[Homerange]

one thing ive noticed is that the sharper the crack of the muzzle blast the cleaner it is. like when you shoot a load that's just right it cracks real sharp but when you shoot a so-so load it jus goes boom. no scientific proof of this either I just noticed it while learning a PPC and it correlates to others now- like if I shoot 4350 in a 6.5x284 it cracks but retumbo just booms. same with 7828ssc in a 33nosler over h1000.

Understood as this would be related to burn rate don't you think ?
I err on the fast side of powder selection with near printed max loads as all of my rifles are hunter length and shorter (Rem Mod 7's) and get reasonably clean burns.
The only real dirty powder/load I've come across was H335 behind 50 grainers in a Mod 7 223 and yet guys here speak highly of it for heavier pills.

 

[dolek]

At the top of the list of dirty, has to be whatever Prvi- Partizan puts in their factory ammo.

+ 1...dirtiest powder I have come across . I have tried tumbling,etc ...best luck I have had was boiling in vinegar with Dawn dish soap.

 

[243winxb]

No list that i know of?

Here is a good old read on the makeup of powders. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/McCord_gunpowder/

Powder companies have SDS & MSDS info on there website. It show the chemicals used and when the powder was made.https://www.hodgdon.com/resources/safety-data-sheets/

Calcium Carbonate is in OEM ball powders. Its listed at the above Hodgdon link, along with many other additives. 15 components in all.

 

[spclark]

...best luck I have had was boiling in vinegar with Dawn dish soap.

Likely then PP still uses CaCO3 in their formulations.

Only reason an acid like vinegar (or our common favorite LemiShine, plain citric acid) helps cut the crud would be some kind of alkaline compound left behind that plays little or no part in powder combustion.

Probably cheaper adding such to help neutralize potential acidity in storage over further processing / washing during production to remove excess acids... but that’s strictly SWAG on my part as I’m no powder chemist.

 

[243winxb]

vinegar with Dawn dish soap.

Both are bad for brass. Vinegar needs to be deactivated.

Dawn has up to 5% Ethanol. Not good for cartridge brass.

In long term storage, brass will become brown and brittle.

Citrus in water with 2 drops of Dawn is safer. Imo.

 

[dolek]

Both are bad for brass. Vinegar needs to be deactivated.

Dawn has up to 5% Ethanol. Not good for cartridge brass.

In long term storage, brass will become brown and brittle.

Citrus in water with 2 drops of Dawn is safer. Imo.

After 15 rinsings, I think I am OK.

 

[chop house]

one thing ive noticed is that the sharper the crack of the muzzle blast the cleaner it is. like when you shoot a load that's just right it cracks real sharp but when you shoot a so-so load it jus goes boom. no scientific proof of this either I just noticed it while learning a PPC and it correlates to others now- like if I shoot 4350 in a 6.5x284 it cracks but retumbo just booms. same with 7828ssc in a 33nosler over h1000.

dusty... i have heard (no pun intended) that an in tune barrel makes a distinctive sound. so prompted by your observations, here is the next tuning protocol to ponder....

record the muzzle blast, perform a fourier transform, analyze the spectrum and determine what characteristics might be predictors of accuracy or other desirable characteristics.

a somewhat similar concept has applications in rotating machines analyzing the input currents. i actually proposed work with, of all things vacuum cleaners, to match the motor speed to carpet resonance to get the dirt to suspend up and make cleaning more thorough. at that time, it was a little too high tech for the lowly household vacuum.

patent the process, get the labradar people to work out the details, and you'll be even more famous...

 

[fyrewall]

I have heard that sodium bicarbonate (baking soda - acid/base buffer) is used to neutralize the acids used to make nitrocellulose and traces of that may remain after any washing process and contribute to the formation of black crud in guns. When vinegar (acetic acid) is added to the baking powder it fizzes making carbon dioxide. Some consideration has to be given to preservation of the blue finish on guns, use of a strong acid like hydrochloric acid, also a reducing agent, will remove it along with the black crud, acetic acid also may attack bluing. I have no plans to immerse my AR or ammo brass in Dawn & hot water with dirty coffee cups.

As best as I can remember (MSDS) CaCO3 is not universally used in all powders and those powders having it might float up to the top of the dirty list. OEM (original equipment manufacture) like St. Marks ball powders contain CaCO3.

Analyzing muzzle blast characteristics to make any relation with crud production is far beyond my abilities, possibly because of the hefty ear protection that I wear.

CaCO3 is in fact present in less than 1% in OEM General Dynamics powders as per Hodgdon MSDS

 

[simo hayha]

Primers also play a role.

 

[TAJ45]

one thing ive noticed is that the sharper the crack of the muzzle blast the cleaner it is. like when you shoot a load that's just right it cracks real sharp but when you shoot a so-so load it jus goes boom. no scientific proof of this either I just noticed it while learning a PPC and it correlates to others now- like if I shoot 4350 in a 6.5x284 it cracks but retumbo just booms. same with 7828ssc in a 33nosler over h1000.

I know, I know (hand raised). . . The more complete combustion of the faster powder equates to the sharper crack.
Do I get the new pkg of muffler bearings or izzit used primers?? ;-)

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I know, I know (hand raised). . . The more complete combustion of the faster powder equates to the sharper crack.
Do I get the new pkg of muffler bearings or izzit used primers?? ;-)

Ill send you a bucket of steam