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GUNSMITHS

I would like to hear comments on what it takes to become a gunsmith. I have heard horror stories on what some gunsmiths do.

Can any clown call himself a gunsmith that repairs guns without training, certification or a FFL?
If you want to chamber and build rifles is the only requirement to purchase an FFL? No training. Don't have to prove your a machinist.

I read somewhere that lathe chucks come in three precision levels based on Total Indicated Runout (TIR). The best cost over $1500. How many gunsmith use a lathe that really isn't the quality you need for a precision rifle?

Should you ask your gunsmith what's the TIR on his lathe?
 
Any clown that can get a FFL can call himself a gunsmith,,,,, that is until he makes enough folks unhappy that they rebuke that title. Don't confuse a machinist with a gunsmith, The two are often used interchangeably, especially on the web. A machinist makes things using machine tools. Might be all he's ever machined is plastics, but he's still considered a machinist, unless he's just a 'button pusher' who puts material in and pushes the green button and takes whatever out when the cycle stops, and then he's just a laborer. Lots of high-tech work gets done with plastics and other synthetic materials, today, so I'm not diminishing the skills a true machinist has. As with any other trade, there are varying, should I say, classes, of machinists. Some with life times of experience with tooling and what can be done with it and some who are just getting a foot-hold on what can be done. Some of those with a life times experience who are so bull-headed they'll never learn anything new and a a few who are just getting a good foot-hold who seem to grasp whatever is put in front of them. Many have made a living as a "machinist". They didn't learn it by watching YouTube videos. A true gunsmith wears many hats. In the past he was a stock maker, a repair mechanic, a fabricator, a metal finisher and yes, a machinist. Only a very few become stock makers, anymore, and the true metal finishers are few and far between. Unless they go into the field of making synthetic stocks and if they do that and are successful, the rest of 'gunsmithing' goes by the wayside. Good metal finishers are usually so busy they haven't time for much else. Should you ask your gunsmith what the TIR of his lathe is? If he's competent, you'll probably just piss him off! There have been many accurate barrels chambered and crowned on, what some consider, 'junky' old lathes. The skill is in the man not the machine. The man who has the skills can compensate for the deficiencies , real or perceived, of his equipment. Don't take that wrong, a machine with ways that are worn completely out and the splindle bearing with the rollers about to "roll out" at you won't do it,,,, be neither will a brand new lathe if it doesn't have experienced brains controlling it. Well maintained equipment is just plain easier to do quality work on, but you still have to know how. To become a gunsmith the two year schools that are around the country (California, Arizona, Colorado, Oklahoma, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Minnesota) would be a good place to start. You'd get exposed to all the fields I mentioned, above. I've heard it said "the self taught had a fool for a teacher". That's true, to a certain degree. Depends on the person, and then that person many times wants more, that he knows he might never learn on his own. I've seen where some recommend an apprenticeship with another gunsmith. I'd recommend that only if you don't need much of a pay check to live on. Not every competent gunsmith is a good teacher. How would you know if his way is really the right way to accomplish the task. There's a sound reason why S&W doesn't sell oversize cylinder stops and hands unless you have their Revolver Armorers certification. Many of the instructors at the two your schools have certifications from the firearms makers and/or are members of the ACGMG. Correspondence courses you say? Well, you haven't got someone looking over your shoulder giving you pointers or actually taking tool in hand to show you how. Or to put eyes and hands on and grade your work. Even if you attend a two year program and graduate there's still much to be learned just like every other field one may study. An apprenticeship in a real shop would be useful to you, then. Hands on experience, with a sound instructional background, is awful hard to beat. "Can any clown call himself a gunsmith that repairs guns without training, certification or FFL?". YEP! As long as they don't keep customer guns overnight! And anymore,,, there's lots of 'um!
 
Thanks for the comments. I am lucky I live near Kellby's range and shop. Sometimes he is to busy to stick a new barrel on a rifle in a reasonable time but it's worth the wait. I cannot believe how accurate my rifle is for a factory rifle glass bedded and a Krieger barrel. Maybe I was lucky. Now I have to find one of those almost extict Ohio GH. I am thinking of switching to coyotes. They are all over the place.
 
Webster said:
I would like to hear comments on what it takes to become a gunsmith. I have heard horror stories on what some gunsmiths do.

Can any clown call himself a gunsmith that repairs guns without training, certification or a FFL?
If you want to chamber and build rifles is the only requirement to purchase an FFL? No training. Don't have to prove your a machinist.

I read somewhere that lathe chucks come in three precision levels based on Total Indicated Runout (TIR). The best cost over $1500. How many gunsmith use a lathe that really isn't the quality you need for a precision rifle?

Should you ask your gunsmith what's the TIR on his lathe?


Just keep watching the internet and you will find all of your answers. HAHAHAHA!

What is an "exict " Ohio GH?
 
I am the lowest man on the pole here, but I'll tell you this, this is one profession where a job is needed to support your shop. If you don't have a supplemental income it's a long arduous road to travel. Yes New equipment is expensive but new isn't always the answer. I have a late model SB Heavy 10 lathe that lived its life in a single operation facility. It's very accurate and the equipment on it was precision quality. It didn't cost as much as a new Gator 6 jaw.

As to calling ones self a gunsmith. Here is how I relate the issue. If you fix your sink, are you plumber; if you put a band aid on, are you health care specialist? Now just because you paint a rifle, hold an FFL or change parts doesn't make you a gunsmith. If you wake in the night with an idea for a better operation on the mill/ lathe, always the same answer to the wife's question "what are you thinking about". Being a gunsmith is more than just fixing firearms.

As to training, the only school I would say can prepare you in classroom setting is the program TSJC offers. All other just hit the tip, IMO. Pennsylvania Gunsmith School is a joke, I went there. Most of the programs are designed for the most basic operations to cover the broadest range of people. Some of the people I went to school with hadn't taken a rifle a part, or shot a rifle. That is the level you have to start at.

Adam
 
I do cnc maching by trade, and have no problem holding a generall +/- .001". However gunsmithing is a very different type of machining. Highly precise line boring and reaming, precision lapping and so on. Smith machining is also speacialty handmade jig assisted process .even though i have 18 years of cnc under my belt i would need a deep new type of learning curve to get up to elevated smithing compentities. Not a skill you can learn out of s book. You need to be schooled by a master smith to truly wrap your arms around the true diverse "gunsmith".
 
I think what some people are saying is the gunsmithing Trade is along learning experience.
New products and designs are being developed each year and systems unique to different fields of the trade.
Its along learning curve. lever action rifles new and old , shot guns of all types and bolt action, not to mention military and semi and full automatic shot guns and rifles and now even pistols that have been modified .
So where does it end? Probably a specialty for the individual. due to the trade being so complex these days.
 
ab_bentley said:
I am the lowest man on the pole here, but I'll tell you this, this is one profession where a job is needed to support your shop. If you don't have a supplemental income it's a long arduous road to travel. Yes New equipment is expensive but new isn't always the answer. I have a late model SB Heavy 10 lathe that lived its life in a single operation facility. It's very accurate and the equipment on it was precision quality. It didn't cost as much as a new Gator 6 jaw.

As to calling ones self a gunsmith. Here is how I relate the issue. If you fix your sink, are you plumber; if you put a band aid on, are you health care specialist? Now just because you paint a rifle, hold an FFL or change parts doesn't make you a gunsmith. If you wake in the night with an idea for a better operation on the mill/ lathe, always the same answer to the wife's question "what are you thinking about". Being a gunsmith is more than just fixing firearms.

As to training, the only school I would say can prepare you in classroom setting is the program TSJC offers. All other just hit the tip, IMO. Pennsylvania Gunsmith School is a joke, I went there. Most of the programs are designed for the most basic operations to cover the broadest range of people. Some of the people I went to school with hadn't taken a rifle a part, or shot a rifle. That is the level you have to start at.

Adam
I graduated 21 years ago from MCC, in Troy, NC. Ya, they start at the bare basics, but if you were the type to grap it and truely interested in knowing, all of the instructors were more than willing to go above and beyond the basics to show/teach you how. I got alot more than the basics. I already had 16+ years of "job shop" machining experience before I decided to go to school. Over the years since, I've met graduates from several of the other gunsmithing schools. Some were pretty sharp and competent others were dumber than a rock. Depends on the person. You get out of it what you put into it. I'm sure the curriculum has changed. I doubt that stock making by hand from a blank is taught anymore, but they're got a stock duplicator that they didn't have then. They've aquired some CNC equipment and at least one of the instructors has gotten schooled up on G code. No CNC when I went, but the machine shop had everything it needed and more than most gunsmiths will ever have the need for. Today, the main emphasis most seem to look at is in the machining. There's really much more to it than that.
 
At PGS stocks from a blank is still taught, but other than that it antiquated curriculum. I believe the same as you, you get out what you put in and learn the extra stuff if you're dedicated to the trade.

Adam
 

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