Gun world news

[hogpatrol]

News report:
Alliant Techsystems Inc said it would merge its aerospace and defense business with Orbital Sciences Corp in stock.
Alliant Techsystems said its shareholders will own about 53.8 percent of the combined company, with Orbital shareholders holding the rest.
Alliant also said it would spin off its outdoor sports business. ( Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle, Alliant Powder, RCBS, Champion Target, Final Approach, Gunslick Pro, Primos, Bollé, Outers, Hoppe’s, Uncle Mike’s, Butler Creek and Weaver Optics.)
Ammunition
The Sporting Group supplies small-caliber ammunition to sport-shooting enthusiasts, devoted hunters, federal and local law enforcement agencies, and the military. Our ammunition brands include Federal Premium, CCI, Fusion, Speer Ammo, Speer Bullets, Estate Cartridge and Blazer.

If you were in this stock before today, you made money. ;D

 

[Rustystud]

They also own Savage Arms any thing said about them?
Nat Lambeth

 

[hogpatrol]

They also own Savage Arms any thing said about them?
Nat Lambeth

Savage is part of their Sporting Group business so they'll be in that part of the spinoff, basically a new independent company.

 

[jonbearman]

I wonder what this means for the future of all these great companys.Maybe atk will step it up.

 

[CatShooter]

It troubles me when these holding companies take over large chunks of one industry.

When "The Leisure Group" took over Lyman, they sucked the life's blood out of Lyman and nearly killed the company - eventually, Lyman got free and has spent many years trying to come back.

Same with Blount, who took over RCBS, and eliminated many of the fine services that RCBS used to provide when Fred Huntington owned it. RCBS never came back to where they were after Blount dumped them.

So I hope these companies get free from corporate blood suckers that have no interest in the product and dump them in slow times, or after the blood is dried up, and gravy products have been discontinued.

 

[dmoran]

ATK reminds me of a monopoly in many ways, that are owners or have ownership in the fallowing besides all there defense, armament, space, and aerospace divisions:
- Ammunition: Blazer, CCI, Estate Cartridge, Federal Premium, Fusion, Speer and Speer Bullets
- Firearms: Savage, Stevens
- Reloading: CCI, Alliant Powder, RCBS
- Accessories: Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle, Champion Target, Final Approach, Gunslick Pro, Primos, Bollé, Outers, Hoppe’s, Uncle Mike’s, Butler Creek, Weaver Optics

 

[JimT]

ATK reminds me of a monopoly in many ways, that are owners or have ownership in the fallowing besides all there defense, armament, space, and aerospace divisions:
- Ammunition: Blazer, CCI, Estate Cartridge, Federal Premium, Fusion, Speer and Speer Bullets
- Firearms: Savage, Stevens
- Reloading: CCI, Alliant Powder, RCBS
- Accessories: Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle, Champion Target, Final Approach, Gunslick Pro, Primos, Bollé, Outers, Hoppe’s, Uncle Mike’s, Butler Creek, Weaver Optics

You might want to brush up on the definition of a "monopoly" since none of the products or brands you have listed in any way approaches a monopoly in any of their market segments.

However, you might be on to something with Savage having a monopoly on something, perhaps Cortina could shed some light on what Salvage has a monopoly on?

 

[dmoran]

You might want to brush up on the definition of a "monopoly" since none of the products or brands you have listed in any way approaches a monopoly in any of their market segments.

You may want to brush up on what "reminds me of" and "in many ways" mean.
What I wrote was "ATK reminds me of a monopoly in many ways"
And will add to that now: they remind of one more then any other corporation in the shooting sports industry today.

 

[JimT]

You might want to brush up on the definition of a "monopoly" since none of the products or brands you have listed in any way approaches a monopoly in any of their market segments.

You may want to brush up on what "reminds me of" and "in many ways" mean.
What I wrote was "ATK reminds me of a monopoly in many ways"
And will add to that now: they remind of one more then any other corporation in the shooting sports industry today.

So what monopoly, in may ways, does ATK remind you of? Is Savage a monopoly? Is RCBS a monopoly? Is Bushnell a monopoly? Is Federal Ammunition a monopoly? Is Speer bullets a monopoly? Is Alliant powder a monopoly? Obviously they are not and putting them under one corporate umbrella does not change that fact.

Just because something reminds you of something you don't understand the definition of doesn't make it true.

 

[dmoran]

Just because something reminds you of something you don't understand the definition of doesn't make it true.

You remind me of a "_ _ _ _ _ _ _" .......

 

[flatlander]

I'm just hoping that Bushnell comes out of the spin-off in at least as good shape as they are now. The optical & mechanical engineering staff there have come out with some truly fine tactical scopes, and it'd be a shame if they weren't able to keep moving upward & onward in that arena.

 

[Old Navy]

Number 1 son still works for ATK here in Utah. Just a spin off and possible for the better. Still a sub of ATK. I have the complete company report. Does not say anything about any changes. Later! Frank

 

[jo191145]

Just because something reminds you of something you don't understand the definition of doesn't make it true.

You remind me of a "_ _ _ _ _ _ _" .......

+1
There's plenty of political forums if someone needs to release hostility.

 

[hogpatrol]

The Freedom Group has a pretty big piece of the firearms related industry. Remington®, Bushmaster® Firearms, DPMS/Panther Arms™, Marlin®, H&R®, The Parker Gun™, Mountain Khakis®, Advanced Armament Corp. ®, Dakota Arms®, Para™ USA and Barnes® Bullets.

 

[Rustystud]

What is real scary is that these big buy out groups don't care about anything but the bottom line.
Two years ago, right after Sandy Hook, I was told The Freedom Group offer to give all of their firearms companies to the government for a tax right off, and go out of the gun business. I was told the federal government told the Feedom Groupthat the assets and good will was not worth the asking price. Think about it, if it had gone through all those companies and employees closed up in one swoop. Would that have not been a cue for Obama, Hillary, Feinstein, Reed, Holder, and Bloomberg.
Nat Lambeth

 

[JimT]

What is real scary is that these big buy out groups don't care about anything but the bottom line.
Two years ago, right after Sandy Hook, I was told The Freedom Group offer to give all of their firearms companies to the government for a tax right off, and go out of the gun business. I was told the federal government told the Feedom Groupthat the assets and good will was not worth the asking price. Think about it, if it had gone through all those companies and employees closed up in one swoop. Would that have not been a cue for Obama, Hillary, Feinstein, Reed, Holder, and Bloomberg.
Nat Lambeth

Nat:

What you have stated is confusing to me. Specifically, if Cerberus was going to "give" their firearms companies to the US government for a tax right off there would not be an "asking price." In fact, Cerberus would not have to give these assets to the US government in order to avail themselves of a write off for tax purposes. That is, they could just abandon the business and write-off their net tax basis on their tax return for the year of abandonment.

While I do not doubt that you heard what you heard, I would find it very unlikely that such a scenario ever took place. The reason I say that is that Cerberus (the owner of Freedom Group) has a fiduciary obligation to its investors (Cerberus takes in investor money and then invests it and oversees/manages such investments for a fee and equity kicker) that would most likely preclude them from carrying out such a transaction.

For a glimpse of what the current state of the future ownership of the Freedom Group (ignoring the offer made early this year by a small technology company) is see the article at the link below.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7f684114-6032-11e3-b360-00144feabdc0.html

Hopefully, nothing I have written here ruffles anyone's feathers.

 

[dkhunt14]

ATK reminds me of a monopoly in many ways, that are owners or have ownership in the fallowing besides all there defense, armament, space, and aerospace divisions:
- Ammunition: Blazer, CCI, Estate Cartridge, Federal Premium, Fusion, Speer and Speer Bullets
- Firearms: Savage, Stevens
- Reloading: CCI, Alliant Powder, RCBS
- Accessories: Bushnell, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle, Champion Target, Final Approach, Gunslick Pro, Primos, Bollé, Outers, Hoppe’s, Uncle Mike’s, Butler Creek, Weaver Optics

I think the definition of monopoly means trying to own or control the market. The amount of companies they own Makes me think that. Primers alone; CCI and Federal has to be a very big percentage of the market. There isn't much left after them two. Winchester they don't sell many and I heard they are not making any to sell, Remington they don't sell many so what's left. I think that is pretty good control of the market. No wonder prices are going up. Matt

 

[JimT]

[/quote] I think the definition of monopoly means trying to own or control the market. The amount of companies they own Makes me think that. Primers alone; CCI and Federal has to be a very big percentage of the market. There isn't much left after them two. Winchester they don't sell many and I heard they are not making any to sell, Remington they don't sell many so what's left. I think that is pretty good control of the market. No wonder prices are going up. Matt
[/quote]

Monopoly definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monopoly

Since Remington and Winchester as well as Tula supply primers to the reloading public clearly the first definition of monopoly is not met. While I don't have any figures on the exact primer production of the 5 companies in question, I believe that Federal and CCI do not control the market to the extent that they set the price in a manipulative manner.

One only need to peruse the isles at Cabelas or Bass Pro to see that Winchester and Remington make a lot of sporting ammo in which they use primers made internally. In addition, both provide primers for reloading enthusiasts:

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/components/centerfire-primers/kleanbore-centerfire-primers.aspx

http://www.winchester.com/Products/components/primers/winchester-primers/Pages/winchester-primers.aspx

So it seems clear that Remington, Winchester and Tula have the capacity to compete with CCI/Federal from a strictly manufacturing capacity standpoint.

The fact that CCI produces the BR product line and Federal the Gold Medal Match line, which seem to be the primers of choice for many on this Forum, might contribute to your impression that Winchester and Remington do not sell many primers to reloaders.

If it were true that Federal and CCI were making SUSTAINABLE profits in excess of industry and historical norms I can assure you that Winchester, Remington and Tula would ramp up production to get in on the deal and, accordingly, supply would rise to such an extent prices would have no where to go but down.

Having been a shareholder of ATK for a little over 1 year (120% return so far) and having listened to several of their earnings conference calls I can assure you that Mr. DeYoung (ATK CEO) sure does not consider ATK's position in the ammo market as a "monopoly." In fact, I don't think I have ever heard a CEO utter the word "competition" as much as he does.

 

[dmoran]

Matt -

I agree with you....
I'm not saying what ATK is doing is wrong or right, or good or bad.
I just know that in "not to many years now" they have taken the helm to several of the shooting sport industry business'. And wonder how many more companies they may buy in the next few years as well.
Like you stated with CCI and Federal primers, and makes me wonder on controlling aspects as well. And what if they were to acquire more primer companies in the future?
Again like I stated above, good or bad, I don't know.... just reminds me of a monopoly in many ways.

Donovan

 

[dkhunt14]

I am basing my opinion on the fact that for over the last 40 years of reloading and match shooting I almost know of nobody that uses REM or WIN primers and Tula I have never seen around here. I live in Pennsylvania and they have more hunters and shooters then most states. Way over a Million hunters and a lot more shooters. Almost every little town has a gun shop. There is at least 8 within 20 miles. I have been in an awful lot of gun shops and you don't see much besides FED. and CCI. Also from what I hear WIN is not producing Primers and brass for sale; it is all going into ammo and sold to other small ammo companies. I am basing my opinion on what I see sitting in the reloading rooms of all I have seen and what I have seen setting on the shelves at the gun shops. When you go in a shop like Grices you get the idea of what people are using. Grices sells more stuff in a month then most sell in a year or more. When they run sales they have at least 4 or 5 cashiers and you still wait in line. Matt